Dr. Jerry Vines & the Prophet

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Dr. Jerry Vines & the Prophet

North,

I do not have knowledge of the specific instance described above, but I have read many of James White's writings and correspondence and, unfortunately, his attempts to "understand and accurately represent" what Mormons believe often leave much to be desired.

However, I agree thoroughly with your other observations and have found that it is possible (and desirable) to critically assess and evaluate without engaging in nasty polemics and mean spirited attacks.

Tony

 

hard to get away from religion

I have been trying to figure out whether religion has been getting more intense of late, or whether I have not been paying attention?
I think in the 1970's we saw the rise of a number of groups with fairly extreme views. Some would use the word cult to describe the "moonies", the "scientologist" etc.
At the same time I wonder if there wasn't a more fundamentalist view arising in the traditional bible belt areas of the USA.
Does an extreme view of one religion encourage/force others to become more passionate in their stances?
Christians, Jews and Moslems all recognize the God of Abraham. Yet, the 3 groups have been fighting, arguing for 2000 years.
Somehow we have to reach the point where we can at least talk about things, without feeling we have to harm those who disagree.
All the best!

 

Re: hard to get away from religion

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While I wonder about the accuracy of your generalization as to which god those three groups recognize, I applaud the virtue of talking about things. Good point!

 

Bill Dayson writes: “There are countless Biblical passages that sound awfully bad, particularly when taken out of context. This is a pretty superficial sort of apologetics, and one that can easily turn around and bite the person using it.”

John Bear, being truly ignorant of apologetics (and whose main religious activity of recent years was going to a football with someone who sat in the end zone next to the guy who holds up the “John 3-16” sign when the cameras are on, and she held up a “Song of Solomon 5:4” ) wonders, for instance, how people would turn around and bite him for, for instance:

Stone difficult children to death.
"And they shall say unto the elders of his city, This our son is stubborn and rebellious, he will not obey our voice; he is a glutton, and a drunkard. And all the men of his city shall stone him with stones, that he die" (Deuteronomy 21:20-21).

Slavery is OK, and slaves must obey harsh owners.
"Slaves, submit yourselves to your masters with all respect, not only to those who are good and
considerate, but also to those who are harsh. For it is commendable if a man bears up under the pain of unjust suffering because he is conscious of God. But how is it to your credit if you receive a beating for doing wrong and endure it? But if you suffer for doing good and you endure it, this is commendable before God. To this you were called, because Christ suffered for you, leaving you an example, that you should follow in his steps" (1 Peter 2:18-21).

The great grandchildren of people born out of wedlock cannot go to church.
"A bastard shall not enter into the congregation of the Lord: even to his tenth generation shall he not enter into the congregation of the Lord" (Deuteronomy 23:2).

Couples having sex during the woman’s period shall be banished.
"And if a man shall lie with a woman having her sickness, and shall uncover her nakedness; he hath discovered her fountain, and she hath uncovered the fountain of her blood: and both of them shall be cut off from among their people." Leviticus 20:18.

 

Stoning difficult children

Dr Bear,

I dont know if I agree with your translation of the biblical passage concerning stoning difficult children ( I consider all English Mistranslations of the Bible suspect) However I do like the Idea of putting crying babies on airplanes into the overhead compartment

 

quoting the bible scares me

I don't have a great deal of training in the christian bible. 8 years of Sunday school. One college class.
The one thing that my teacher in class did say, was that each passage of the bible should be interpreted in terms of the whole.
I think that makes it too confusing to take any single passage literally.
It is often said, that if one looks hard enough one can justify anything. For example using the nuclear bomb. Clearly good decimated Sodom in a righteous cause. Therefore we can destroy whole cities ina righteous cause.
I wonder if the god of the new testament would have a different interpretation than the god of the old testament?
All the best!

 

Dr. Jerry Vines

Does anyone still wonder why a large part of the world hates America??

 

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As John Bear points out there are texts in the Bible which harshly run against the grain of our modern ethical code. This is particularly noticable and repugnant when these Scriptures are isolated from their historical and literary contexts. But such a hermeneutical procedure of ignoring these basic interpretive principles would be incautious and unacademic to follow (and not easily understood from one able to do such splendid research in other endeavors )when measuring any large body of writing spanning millenia of history and which writing came to a conclusion nearly 2000 years ago. Even a cursory glance at the contexts of the Petrine and Mosaic literature will indicate times and conditions which occasioned some of these hard sayings. As for Peter the Christian gospel did not indeed attempt to forcibly end slavery. Rather it urged love toward all and forgiveness of debts. It modeled for us He who(according to the evangelical persuasion) gave the supreme sacrifice for forgiveness for both free AND enslaved. What is neglected by those who isolate such as 1 Pet 2 :18f is that the NT teaches that in Christ slave and free are equal.(Galatians 3:26) What a noble but here sadly ignored concept!
I believe one would correctly observe that the struggle against slavery in the USA frequently had at the forefront those who espoused and applied Christian principles! Of course we neglect these effects from biblical applications at times, don't we. As for much of the Mosaic code , our observations should begin with Yahweh's struggle to instill holiness and obedience in His chosen people by setting them apart from the surrounding cultures- even when the prohibitions seem to us today harsh or silly . It is so much easier to raise these problems and let others attempt to answer by prefacing our comments with such as, "I'm not a Biblical scholar, but..." Sometimes we do not take the simple opportunity to see in the immediate contexts the wickedness of those ancient environments as the chapter Bear quoted from indicates: Leviticus 20 wherein sacrificing one's children to Molach is forbidden. No it is so much easier to underscore the problems than to seek the solutions in any discipline, isn't it?!

 

Good points Bill!

North

 

good work Bill!

I echo the sentiment.
Good points Bill!
All the best!

 

Re: good work Bill!

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Irat and North

Thanks. The difficulties should not be minimized, but I believe our distanciation from the societal occasions of those writings needs to be recognised and addressed and factored into our critical approaches.

 

It gets worse...

Numbers 31
[17]Now therefore kill every male among the [Midianite] little ones, and kill every [Midianite] woman that hath known man by lying with him.
[18] But all the women children, that have not known a man by lying with him, keep alive for yourselves.

Deuteronomy 20
[16] But of the cities of these people, which the LORD thy God doth give thee for an inheritance, thou shalt save alive nothing that breatheth:
[17] But thou shalt utterly destroy them; namely, the Hittites, and the Amorites, the Canaanites, and the Perizzites, the Hivites, and the Jebusites; as the LORD thy God hath commanded thee:

1 Samuel 15
[2] Thus saith the LORD of hosts, I remember that which Amalek did to Israel, how he laid wait for him in the way, when he came up from Egypt.
[3] Now go and smite Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have, and spare them not; but slay both man and woman, infant and suckling, ox and sheep, camel and ass.

Psalm 137
[8] O daughter of Babylon, who art to be destroyed; happy shall he be, that rewardeth thee as thou hast served us.
[9] Happy shall he be, that taketh and dasheth thy little ones against the stones.


Ezekiel 9
[3] And the glory of the God of Israel was gone up from the cherub, whereupon he was, to the threshold of the house. And he called to the man clothed with linen, which had the writer's inkhorn by his side;
[4] And the LORD said unto him, Go through the midst of the city, through the midst of Jerusalem, and set a mark upon the foreheads of the men that sigh and that cry for all the abominations that be done in the midst thereof.
[5] And to the others he said in mine hearing, Go ye after him through the city, and smite: let not your eye spare, neither have ye pity:
[6] Slay utterly old and young, both maids, and little children, and women: but come not near any man upon whom is the mark; and begin at my sanctuary. Then they began at the ancient men which were before the house.

1 Timothy 2
[11] Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection.
[12] But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.
[13] For Adam was first formed, then Eve.
[14] And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression.

I bring this up not to throw rocks at biblical literalism, but to point out once again that Dr. Vines should have taken the log out of his own eye before he went after obscure Islamic texts.


Peace,

 

I get scared

I hate to repeat myself,
but I get scared when people start quoting the bible.
All the best!

 

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Generally evangelical systematic theology begins with establishing to its own satisfaction the inerrancy of the autographa of its Scriptures and the virtues in them as products of a perfect God. I pretty much believe this too. But I agree with Tom that there are many, many extremely difficult statements in that literature which are quite hard to synthesize into the view of inspiration thus described. While I consider this apologetic endeavor not an impossible challenge, we all , particularly now our Muslim friends,deserve the respect of others in our religious beliefs. Because of these points I am shy about taking potshots at others. While my view is that my God is perfect, I, alas, am too far distant from that perfection to judge those who disagree with me!.