Distance Learning Law Schools

distance learning law school

Nosborne, yea that can be a downside.....I paid $27,000 for my ABA LL.M degree and never worked so hard in my whole life on anything, but because of my California unacredited J.D. degree I wanted to add it to my credentials.

Just depends if you want to say the name of the ABA law school from which you graduated.....and if member of the State Bar it doesnt matter that J.D. was unaccredited.........you just say I graduated from (state the ABA law school where you got LL.M degree) and that is pretty much the end of that.

By the way I am proud of my Northwestern California University School of Law J.D. degree............distance learning is much harder then a residential law program.

Briefly attended a state bar accredited law school, Lincoln Law School of San Jose, Lincoln itself has been around over 80 years, orginally in San Fransciso.

I wasnt impressed.......and frankly could tell many of the students
were getting passed cuz that tuition money is critical for a small school but I wouldnt have hired them as my lawyer....I think state bar accredited law schools are frankly no better then Northernwestern California or William Howard Taft. Bar passes rates are different story but then not all distance learning students want to or will take the bar exam.

Its the student......my neighbor graduated from Golden Gate Univeristy, ABA J.D. took the bar (5) fives times.....finally passed and is practicing......I wouldnt hire him to represent my cat!!

 

Hey, only the BEST is good enough for MY cat!

Having studied at a resident ABA school for my J.D. (University of New Mexico) and now studying D/L for my LL.M., I agree with you that D/L is MUCH harder.

 

Re: distance learning law school

Hi JDLLM,


You said, "Also if one has 3 year non-bar J.D. from a California distance learning law school and an LL.M from an ABA law school, Cal State Bar will accept as credit towards the 4 year study requirement the time spent in the ABA law school working on
the LL.M degree."

I understand that most of the CA distance law school offers 3 year non-bar J.D. program. However, do you mean taking 12 courses rather than taking 16 classes (bar qualifying)?

Will Golden Gate University or University of SF LL.M. program accept an applicant with only 60 or 70 semester units of law study?

 

But if you are going to do this, don't you need to register and log your hours from the beginning? And if so, what's the advantage over going the cheaper Bar J.D. route?

 

Umm.. from where is all the confrontational tone coming? We've never tangled before... nor do I want to now. I appreciate your "been there, done that" perspective, and I value your insights as you've stated them here... I really do. Very interesting... seriously. I was particularly pleased to read that the same two D/L J.D. programs that I have always recommended here -- and for pretty much the same reasons -- is what you recommend here, as well. So we're of one mind, I think, on most of this stuff.

But you're not the only one who knows a little something about this subject; and some of us bother to make sure we're actually right as much as posssible before we make definitive statements, generally, around here. May I have a little credit for that, please?

From the ABA web site:

• Standard 308 of the ABA Standards for Approval of Law Schools states that an ABA-approved law school may not establish a degree program in addition to its J.D. degree program unless the school is fully approved, and the additional degree program will not detract from a law school's ability to maintain a sound J.D. degree program. The school must obtain the Council's acquiescence prior to commencing such a program. The ABA does not formally approve any program other than the first degree in law (J.D.).
  
  ABA accreditation does not extend to any program supporting any other degree granted by the law school. Rather the content and requirements of those degrees, such as an LL.M., are created by the law school itself and do not reflect any judgment by the ABA accrediting bodies regarding the quality of the program. Moreover, admission requirements for such programs, particularly with regard to foreign students, vary from school to school, and are not evaluated through the ABA accreditation process. The ABA reviews post-JD degree programs only to determine whether the offering of such post-JD program would have an adverse impact on the law school's ability to maintain its accreditation for the JD program. If no adverse impact is indicated, the ABA "acquiesces" in the law school's decision to offer the non-JD program and degree.
  
  The Council of the Section of Legal Education and Admissions to the Bar has adopted a statement that no post J.D. or other graduate program is a substitute for the J.D. and should not be considered the equivalent of the J.D. for bar admission purposes.
  
  Those interested in post J.D. programs of a law school should contact the school(s) directly. Persons who have not obtained a J.D. from an ABA-approved law school may wish to contact the bar admission authorities in the state(s) in which persons intend to practice for more information on whether graduation from a post-J.D. program will qualify a person to take the bar examination in that state.
  
  SOURCE: http://www.abanet.org/legaled/postjdprograms/postjd.html

Acquiescence is a far cry from approval or accreditation.

Yes, but not with an ABA-approved/accredited LLM. Regionally-accredited, maybe... depends on whether the law school is also regionally-accredited. But under no circumstances would the LLM be ABA-approved and/or accredited... but, rather, merely acquiesced to. There's a helluva difference.

That said, let me be clear about this: An LLM most definitely is a higher degree than the J.D. -- no question about that, as you correctly point out. Furthermore, an LLM from a law school whose J.D. is ABA-approved really is as good, and as an impressive, a thing as you're saying. I completely agree with you on that. Such a(n LLM) degree is just not ABA-approved/accredited; nor should it, in both my opinion and that of the ABA, ever be used [/i]instead[/i] of a J.D. -- whether or not ABA-approved -- for admission to the bar. But, if one had a non-ABA-approved J.D. and an LLM from a law school whose J.D. is ABA-approved, then that would, it seems to me, be a perfectly acceptable pre-requisite to bar entry... be it by exam, or on motion without exam.

Well... yes... actually, that's exactly what we're talking about. The ABA makes a clear an unambiguous distinction between a J.D. program and all other post-J.D. degrees. It approves/accredits the former, and it merely acquiesces to the latter.

Well... actually, technically, no. Er... well... yes and no. Strictly technically speaking, one would have graduated from a law school whose J.D. is approved/accredited (but whose LLM is not... ostensibly because the ABA never approves/accredits any LLM's, anywhere). That said, I agree with you that, as a matter of practice, that LLM would be considered, out in the marketplace, as "ABA approved/accredited," but only by technical mistake... which, as a practical matter, over which no one would be very likely to split hairs, as I'm doing now.

Agreed... but, regarding specifics, only as I've stated above.

As stated, above, as a practical matter, LLMs from law schools whose J.D.s are ABA-approved/accredited are, themselves, often viewed -- howsoever technically inaccurately -- as ABA-approved/accredited; and, further, more than one state admits by one method or another based on said LLM... in some cases, as a means of atoning for or legitimizing what the state might consider an otherwise unacceptable and non-ABA-approved prior J.D. degree. Use that way -- and not in lieu of any J.D. at all -- I agree with states that do that... Arizona, apparently, being one of them.

No... conditionally, that is... as my immediately previous reply clearly indicates.

See... right there... that's part of the confrontational tone to which I referred earlier. Where's that coming from, counsel?

 

DesElms

What degree do YOU have?


Do have have an LL.M degree from an ABA approved law school?

Mostly likely not.....

.................And the Dean of the ABA law school I graduated from disagrees with your assesment as to whether or not is is a degree from an ABA law school and he rules on that subject not you.

I know what the ABA says and I dont care......the ABA "accredits"
professional J.D. degree as a means to regulate the admission to the bar of many states.............. but if you graduated from an ABA law school you graduated from an ABA law school.


And again I completely disagree with you regarding the LL.M degree but I am not going to write a 10 page essay on the subject to satisfy your morbid last word obsession........... ...........you seem to have way too much free time on your hands.

and seriously your pontificating latin phrase on each message is OLD !

No one is impressed.................trust me

Care to compare W-2's from last year?

 

Gentlemen,

Good afternoon, all. This appears to be a very, and I mean VERY, informative and fact-laden thread. Let us not allow it to descend into acrimony and bickering.

JDLLM: you appear to have some refreshing insights and experiences to share on this fairly complex, almost ode to states-rights issue, but why the hostility and name-calling (especially as directed at Gregg?) Methinks that you can hold your own without resorting to this:

...... or that:

??

I mean, really! Not quite relevant to elaborating on the validity of your much appreciated and helpful JD/LLM/ABA/other fine legal points, are they? Stay positive and on point, please.

Thanks again for a most informative thread, Gentlemen.

 

JDLLM:

Please note: I am not a (sexist) pig at all..... smile. Not in the least!

If I erred in referring to both of you as "Gentlemen" and you, specifically, as a "Gentleman" (when you are a actually a woman/Lady/Esquire) I am deeply sorry. Accept my apology.

Friends, I hope?

Thanks.

 

Re: distance learning law school

No, it doesn't; and you really need to stop saying that it does, here, because, technically, it's inaccurate; and, in any case, it's misleading.

That said, as I stated in my previous post, it's a perfectly understandable mistake, made by more than just you; and, as a practical matter, an LLM from a law school whose J.D. is ABA-approved/accredited is often thought of as also ABA-approved/accredited, howsoever technically inaccurate that thought may happen to be.

The ABA makes no such distinction; and, as a practical matter, it's a distinction without a difference in any case.

Several states routinely deviate from ABA recommendations. Actually, I think that's a good thing in many cases. Nothing new there.

So, then... what the problem here, really, is that you and your California D/L. J.D. have been beat-up a little by ABA-approved J.D. holders out there (and so you've got a little sensitivity thing going on... and a concomitant chip on your shoulder); and you've refined your argument against them and are sharing it with us here, now. Is that about it? And, by the way, I think that's fine. I'm just trying to figure out where all this aggression's coming from.

Agreed... on some levels. D/L, generally, is more difficult than a B&M delivery because of the self-discipline it requires. In the case of a law degree, the Socratic method may suffer a bit because of D/L. But an ABA-approved J.D. program is plenty tough, too. Still, you're absolutely correct: You should be justly proud of your NWCULAW J.D. It is quite an accomplishment. My hat's off to ya'!

So, then, you like the Machiavelli quote in my signature, no?

Listen... let's make no mistake about it, here: Your credentials are impressive, and worthy, and every bit as good as anyone else's as far as the California bar and the courts (and I) are(am) concerned! And your LLM makes it so that many other states will think so, too. Your accomplishments are nothing at which to sneeze. Again, my hat's off to you... and I mean that.

Actually, I'm starting to wonder if you actually do... given the immaturity of this unprovoked outburst.

No... actually, the ABA does. After all, it's their name above the approval/accreditation door, and not your law school's, isn't it?

Okay... well, then... that's an entirely different matter, isn't it? And you're certainly free to do that, but since you live in a world where others do care, I'm wondering how far in life that position is probably getting you.

No doubt. I'm sure you're right. And I agree with you that that can be irritating under certain circumstances; and that it should not really have that kind of absolute power in all cases. That's long been a complaint about the ABA by many, generally. So I understand what you're saying. It's most certainly valid.

And if you graduated from an ABA law school with a J.D., then it's ABA-approved/accredited; and if with any other degree, it's not. And neither wishing, nor the tacit approval of the dean of your ABA-approved law school, will change that.

Which you're certainly free to do. But it would be your opinion which bears little resemblance to the facts, in this case. And that's fine. That's your right... which I respect.

Well, then... if you're not willing to do the work, then perhaps you should not expect to win the argument. One can only hope that you're more thorough in your practice.

I've only "pontificated" a latin phrase (other than their existence in my signature) in one thread recently (or perhaps at all, here)...

...and isn't it curious that the writing style, and the precise and incorrect use of ellipsis, here, mimics that of Lajazz947 -- who also claims to have a J.D. -- in that very thread wherein he's also taking immature and unprovoked pot shots at me purely, apparently, for the sport of it.

Hmmmm.

Oh, my... you're positively worked-up into a swivet, aren't you? Would you like a moment?

Why, yes... actually... I'd be happy to, if you insist. I'll bet you'd end-up being the one surprised.

So, then... this inordinately (and unprovoked) confrontational tone -- and, now, attack -- is coming from somewhere, here, other than this thread, no? Lord knows I've bent over backward, here, to pay you more compliments than you probably deserve. But still you attack.

Where's that coming from? Hmm?

(Hey, look, everyone... I seem to have attracted me a brand new enemy... or is it really just Lajazz947 in JDLLM clothing?)

And thanks, Jake. It is curious, isn't it? I'm completely impressed with the guy's credentials; and I completely agree with his view of the LLM's value and utility, as a practical matter, out there in the universe. But for some reason, that's just not enough.

So who's got an obsession now, eh?

Well, I'm most certainly a man... and a gentleman, I dare say. Not suffering fools most certain doesn't make one not a gentleman.

And though I would not characterize JDLLM's behavior, here, as gentlemenly, there's not doubt that testosterone is behind it... so I'd say he's a guy, too.

From my perspective we most certainly are... er... you know... as much "friends" as anyone can become in a place like this. I value your input tremendously -- even when I disagree with it... which I'm having trouble remembering at the moment if I ever have. But if I haven't, trust me, if I ever did I'd still consider us "friends."

I can't speak for JDLLM.

 

JDLLM,

I am unsure how we managed to upset you. I thought it was pretty clear that we were all THRILLED to hear from someone who had actually "done it the hard way". There are regular enquiries on this forum about the California D/L route; in you we at last have an expert to consult.

I hope that you do not think that I, for example, consider you less of a lawyer because you didn't get an ABA J.D. degree. I certainly DON'T; I'm still working on MY LL.M. and I have never attempted, let alone passed, the notorious California Bar exam.

My last law partner, admited here in New Mexico, was a LaVern grad. Believe me, I do not judge a lawyer on his degree, accredited or otherwise.

 

distance learning law school

No I am not the person you think I am.........New to posting here.

DesElms............your pompous...........not only wouldnt answer whether or not you have an LL.M degree from an ABA accredited law school your didnt even mention any degrees.....still working on yours or just too embrassed to talk about it?

Your a long winded over opinated pompous individual.......I am used to that having GRADUATED FROM AN ABA LAW SCHOOL.........

your good at overwriting and overanalzying............but yours is an opinion NOT shared by many Deans of many ABA law schools
and you know if you dont have an LL.M degree from an ABA law school..........your opinion is like you know what.....everyone has one and frankly it doesnt matter.

 

Maybe... assuming he's telling the truth, that is... which I'm actually beginning to doubt, a bit, at this point... at least based on his obvious lack of maturity and debating skills. You'd think that someone who professes to have his kind of credentials would be better at this. I now have my doubts. However, for purposes of responding to the rest of your post, and his, I'll give him the benefit of that doubt and assume he's not lying... against my better judgement.

Nor do I... as I thought I had made clear in my earlier posts. But JDLLM seems blinded by a passion motivated by something he's not disclosing here.

Nor do I... as I thought was also fairly clear from my previous posts here. But, again, JDLLM seems to have a mysterious hidden agenda of some kind. His dislike of me clearly preceded his thread-starting post here. And my participation here has clearly driven him to off-topic, insulting (seemingly for its own sake), distraction.

Okay... fine, then. I'll take you at your word on that... notwithstanding whether or not you actually deserve that consideration, after everything else you've written here.

The unspoken, unwritten (or is it unwritten... I've never actually checked) sort of "rule" around here is that unless someone proffers his/her credentials here, it's none of anyone's damned business. Only the trolls and shills who sometimes visit us from other fora whose members seem to like to read here and reply there (mostly 'cause most of them have been thrown outta' here) seem to make that challenge... the one you're now making, I mean.

And, anyway, the old "if you've never walked in my shoes, then you couldn't possibly know anything about it" argument is bogus on its face... always has been... always will be.

Hmm. For someone so allegedly "used" to it, it certainly seems to be tripping your trigger and driving you to distraction with almost no effort from me, doesn't it?

Oh, but were mine the only opinions "not shared by many deans of many ABA law schools." But that doesn't make them right, does it?

For someone who professes your particular line of work, it's interesting how even when the ABA's black letter words (er... well... okay... dark blue letter, I guess, in this case) are provided to you, you reject them, summarily; and, instead of acknowledging that I was technically right and you were wrong, but then correctly pointing out that that notwithstanding, as a practical matter, an LLM from a law school whose J.D. is ABA-approved/accredited is treated by the profession in much the way that you described -- an assertion, incidentally, with which I have been unambigous, here, in my categorical agreement -- you've chosen, steadfastly, to stick with your precise and inaccurate intepretation of things. I know alot of lawyers, and every last one of them -- even the bad ones -- seem to make better use of their minds than that; and tend to have a more sophisticated and refined sense of accuracy and fairness.

Are you sure you're telling us the truth about your credentials, here? Oops... I'm sorry... I earlier said that I'd give you the benefit of the doubt about that. Withdrawn.

Again with the "if you haven't walked in my shoes" argument. Oy.

Please tell me you're better at this in the courtroom, JDLLM.

Please.

(Boy... would I ever hate to be this guy's malpractice insurer!)

 

DesElms

I actually do have a Juris Doctor from Northwestern California University and I actually do have a LL.M degree from St. Thomas University an ABA accredited and ABA approved law school.......a point that was pointed out to me many, many times by St. Thomas BEFORE I was admitted into the program......which Mr. DesElms was solely based on my J.D. degree.

YOU APPARENTLY HAVE NEITHER A J.D. DEGREE OR AN LL.M DEGREE and thus stand on shanky ground with your endless
blah, blah, blah, blah........repeative same 'ol talking points.

And your pompous latin quotes.......get a life

I have only posted in the last 2 days and I already dont like you!

Where did you get your Law Degree again????

 

[shakes head and sighs] Hohboy.

 

Well, JDLLM, I certainly don't doubt that you are what you claim to be. No one here is required to prove up their credentials but I don't doubt that, if you gave me you name, I would find it on the California Roll of Attorneys.

I do think you may not entirely understand DesElms; he never claimed to be a lawyer or to have a law degree. It is I who claim those things.

I think that you are arguing something really quite clear; a person who takes a degree from a school is a graduate of that school and that, as far as the school is concerned, is self evident.

Where a state board of bar examiners requires an applicant to be a "graduate of a law school accredited by the ABA", they'll likely agree, too.

DesElms is pointing out, I think, that the ABA has placed pressure with some success on state boards to change their rules and accept ONLY the J.D. from an ABA school.

And all I wanted to say is that your NWCU J.D. would be accepted even WITHOUT an LL.M. by many, many state boards once you show a few years of practice experience.

In any event, I hope that you will answer some of the many questions we receive about D/L law study.

Both of you seem correct to me.

NB-Sorry. Looking over your posts, I think I am mistaken. I guess you didn't say you were admitted in California? I don't mean to put words in your mouth.

 

Of course!

Ohmygod... that's it! Of course! What's wrong with me? How did I miss that?

That's JDLLM's problem, isn't it? That's got to be it! He's not admitted to practice anywhere. He couldn't pass the bar! Of course!

Well... that would certainly explain some things, here, wouldn't it? His logic problems, his inability to grasp words put before his very eyes, his odd writing style, his lack of rudimentary debate tactics, his refusal to adjust his argument to fit the facts, his inordinate defensiveness and sensitivity, that chip on his shoulder... of course... it all makes sense now. How could I have been so oblivious! Oh, boy... I really am embarrassed now.

So, JDLLM... do I have it about right? Have I found... with Nosborne's completely unintended help... your achilles heel? Is that why you've suddenly fallen silent?

So, then... if so... whether you're better at this in the courtroom -- or whether you have good malpriactice insurance if you're not -- is all kinda' moot (no pun intended), isn't it?

Just checkin'

[Whew! I'll bet he really doesn't like me now!]

 

distance learning law school

DesElms:

Blah, Blah, Blah.......you wannabe..........you have NO law degree and your telling me what's going on?

Get a law degree and then you will have some credibility......your high school debating skills are so so...........BUT YOU HAVE NO LAW DEGREE.

Enough time wasted on you..........YOUR EXPOSED........Posters
take everything DesElms.........says with a grain of salt........he is telling you all about law degrees...........and the idiot doesnt even have one himself.

Quite the irony.......isnt it?

See infra:

Ohmygod... that's it! Of course! What's wrong with me? How did I miss that?

Yea people are gonna get the advice on medicine from a person who has no degree in medicine and advice on law degrees from someone that doesnt have a degree in law.

WANNABES..............god they got balls

That's JDLLM's problem, isn't it? That's got to be it! He's not admitted to practice anywhere. He couldn't pass the bar! Of course!

Well... that would certainly explain some things, here, wouldn't it? His logic problems, his inability to grasp words put before his very eyes, his odd writing style, his lack of rudimentary debate tactics, his refusal to adjust his argument to fit the facts, his inordinate defensiveness and sensitivity, that chip on his shoulder... of course... it all makes sense now. How could I have been so oblivious! Oh, boy... I really am embarrassed now.

So, JDLLM... do I have it about right? Have I found... with Nosborne's completely unintended help... your achilles heel? Is that why you've suddenly fallen silent?

So, then... if so... whether you're better at this in the courtroom -- or whether you have good malpriactice insurance if you're not -- is all kinda' moot (no pun intended), isn't it?

Just checkin'

 

Re: distance learning law school

So... then... getting back to the question you think you've so artfully dodged: I'm right, am I? You're not admitted to practice anywhere because you couldn't pass the bar?

Shall I take what you wrote, above, as a "yes," then?

 

Re: distance learning law school

LOL!!!
The word of the day is competence, not to be confused with impotence, gonadectomy or no. Name calling is not synonymous with competence. Neither is stereotypically adolescent behavior.


Tony

 

Re: Re: distance learning law school

Hi JDLLM,

Now things settle a bit, could you help me understand the following:


You said, "Also if one has 3 year non-bar J.D. from a California distance learning law school and an LL.M from an ABA law school, Cal State Bar will accept as credit towards the 4 year study requirement the time spent in the ABA law school working on
the LL.M degree."

I understand that most of the CA distance law school offers 3 year non-bar J.D. program. However, do you mean taking 12 courses rather than taking 16 classes (bar qualifying)?

Will Golden Gate University or University of SF LL.M. program accept an applicant with only 60 or 70 semester units of law study?