Central University of Nicaragua Degree Scheme

Discussion in 'Accreditation Discussions (RA, DETC, state approva' started by Rich Douglas, Nov 21, 2021.

Loading...
  1. cacoleman1983

    cacoleman1983 Well-Known Member

    I am being as patient as I can and am glad I am not in a hurry to have the PhD as I am not pursing it for any career change or advancement that requires it. All of UCN degrees are official and suppose to receive full recognition based on their autonomous nature. I think the only official (RVOE) Doctorate from Azteca is the Doctor of Education (EdD). The dean told me that UCN's status is still up to par and that they scored well enough on their review to not have to stop their dual awards so they are not going away anytime soon although I'm sure there will be some policy changes still coming concerning admission procedures.
     
    Last edited: Aug 14, 2022
  2. Johann

    Johann Well-Known Member

    It appears it was "overlooked" for some months... :) I couldn't resist. I know you mean "looked over." Possibly, the office was empty a lot of the time. I'll explain.

    As to "why the dean himself?" I think maybe this is a small operation, low overhead, VERY few people - maybe run out of a secluded, 10x12 unmarked back office in the University. (So as not to be too noticeable, if authorities do a site visit?) I'm betting most of UCN premises have to do with on-ground Nicaraguan students earning degrees in the daytime, that the school has complete authorization for - and this offshore operation is a lucrative side-gig, just for "those in the know."

    That's my take anyway.
     
    Last edited: Aug 14, 2022
  3. Garp

    Garp Well-Known Member

    That would be my take as well. Probably basically a one-man show with the director of the international operation of Azteca running mostly everything. If I recall correctly his Doctorate is from Azteca.

    How the system works is that once you complete the Azteca requirements your degree is submitted through UCN. That is how it was explained to me. Basically, you don't enroll in both degrees at the same time. As to whether ucn actually reviews the dissertation or simply rubber stamps whatever the guy heading azteca's International division approves is another matter. The cost of a ucn PhD is tacked on after the Azteca degree.
     
  4. Garp

    Garp Well-Known Member

    I would guess there is some money to be made for Azteca International in that they enroll a number of people and a smaller number of people actually go on to do work and complete requirements. They seem to require the money pretty much up front.

    For some people Azteca/UCN may work. If you simply want a doctorate that you can make an argument is equivalent of a regionally accredited doctorate then this is an inexpensive route. It is up in the air as to whether you can get a foreign credential evaluator to sign off but there is an example, and I imagine probably others, of a credible foreign credential evaluator that will evaluate the degree as equivalent. That one UCN dissertation that could have been written by a mediocre high school student who had time to barf up 800 pages of nonsense does lead me to question the rigor. Possibly there are some very rigorous dissertations and this was an outlier. But then I would suggest that they probably need to work on their internal quality controls.
     
    Last edited: Aug 14, 2022
    Johann likes this.
  5. Johann

    Johann Well-Known Member

    Making the argument is one thing. Winning it may be another. Or, these days, not even be a thing at all. YMMV. Nice for a wall decoration - but you could re-do your entire den for the same money.
     
    Last edited: Aug 15, 2022
  6. Johann

    Johann Well-Known Member

    Or take your family on a nice trip. Or buy a good guitar, a monstro amp and some weird outfits. Or a really good Swiss watch - that's class! Or a couple of imported suits - Italian is always good. Or, if you REALLY want problems - a used motorcycle. The choices are endless...
     
  7. Rich Douglas

    Rich Douglas Well-Known Member

    The question in all of these degree-authority-rental situations is the level of quality control exercised by the issuing institution. In all my running around, I've come across quite an array of work people used when "obtaining" their degrees. It was occasionally stunning to see what people thought would pass--almost always something they'd done before enrollment and wanted to get a degree for it.

    But I don't really care about this stuff personally. Well, to be specific, I don't really care what people claim for themselves unless it's thrown in my face. If you want to run around calling yourself "doctor," I really don't care what the source of the credential is. Typically, if you're in a situation where it really matters, where the credential you claim is essential to others, you'll be found out, or you'll fail. I don't think it's irrelevant, of course, because of the integrity angle. Whenever I see that good ol' rationalization, "Well, the degree wasn't required for the position, so we just ignored it." I think, "Is integrity required for the position?" But other than that, I don't really care. There are simply too many ways to lay claim to a degree--legitimate and illicit alike. But when you rationalize your fake degree because it was awarded for your duck book, and you come around here looking for validation for it, and you even do it twice, I'm not so sympathetic.

    As for the proprio and renting a school's degree-awarding capability situations, I (again) really don't care. I think most of it is a dodge, but not enough to try and do something about it. And if people who should know better decide not to mind the gate, well that's for them to deal with.
     
  8. RFValve

    RFValve Well-Known Member

    There is really a tiny amount of people that do these degrees in Canada or the US. With so many people with PhDs from India, Latin American, etc driving taxis and doing odd jobs, I really don't see thousands of people running after these degrees. There is a tiny population that might benefit like those working as adjuncts and needing a PhD just to get more work or those that work an independent that need to display a PhD just to get more customers. Either way, adjuncts make very little money in general so if this PhD can add 10 or 20K more to their salary, let it be. If a CPA wants a PhD just to show it in a business card, let it be. If a psychotherapist needs a PhD so people can feel he is more qualified, let it be. There is some learning happening here and it might be not as robust as a Harvard degree but in general these degrees are just for a tiny amount of people and maybe not worth so much attention here. I personally would do it just to learn a field that I like and wouldn't care about getting a tenure track position with it.
     
    Steven Nguyen likes this.
  9. Johann

    Johann Well-Known Member

    I'm OK with all the above post - except this. People in helping occupations, regulated or not - should not be using "degrees" as a client confidence builder. Some of the people who do this turn "helping" disciplines into "damaging" ones. Then again, those people would likely do that anyway, if lowball "degree-looking-papers" weren't available, so ...

    I think a LOT of this non-standard "Doctorate" stuff is ego-driven, and I don't really understand it. My own ego is the size of a Bentley Flying Spur (not the price - one of those starts at $208,225) but one of these degrees would do NOTHING for me. It is what it is. A low-ball consolation-prize thingy. A thingy without beauty is a pain forever. It's everybody's own business how they spend their money. But I can get way better ego-boost mileage out of a few thousand bucks than this. Heck, I can get way more mileage out of a few hundred.
     
  10. RFValve

    RFValve Well-Known Member

    If I already hold a pyschotherapist license, the PhD is just a booster. The customer is protected because of the license and the PhD is just marketing. May psychotherapist have PhDs in Religion, history, etc but they use it just to attract clients.

    Bottom line, the government license is what protects the customer not the PhD.
     
  11. Johann

    Johann Well-Known Member

    IIRC, your PhD was from a metaphysics school in California. Not RA or NA. Your account of your learning experience there is somewhere in another thread. By your own admission, you earned a Bachelor's, Master's and Doctorate from that school in around six months. Usually it takes a year, but you had plenty of study experience, having completed degree programs at "regular" universities. Thus you were able to complete 3 degrees in this time frame.

    OK - you tell me have a legit Psychotherapist licence. I assume you meet the Ontario qualifications required, as below:

    "CRPO requires a master's-level program central to the practice of psychotherapy for registration. This can be a master's degree or an equivalent graduate diploma that requires completion of a bachelor's-level program for admission.."

    How is this six-month unaccredited Metaphysics doctorate supposed to be any kind of "Booster?" If it's because your client thinks it's something it isn't - (i.e. a "real" doctorate) that's deception as I see it. And does the CRPO officially OK your letting clients know (in any way e.g. business card) about your Metaphysics doctorate? A lot of professional organizations frown on any use of such degrees, even - or perhaps especially, for promotional reasons.
     
  12. Rich Douglas

    Rich Douglas Well-Known Member

    I lived in the Washington, DC area when I finished my PhD. Being a PhD and a retired military officer makes you a consultant. I doubled my income the year after graduating by becoming a consultant with a systems engineering firm; it quadrupled two years after that. No one ever asked where I'd done it, what I did it in, or even proof of it. They just billed me at, um, "interesting" hourly rates to government agencies like the CIA, NASA, and DHS. All because of that degree no one checked up on.
     
  13. Rich Douglas

    Rich Douglas Well-Known Member

    This has always been a heartburn for me, too, irrespective of the source or quality of the degree.

    In the medical field, the term "doctor" is a professional one, not an academic one. It is unusual for someone not licensed as a physician, psychologist, chiropractic, etc. to use the term "doctor" based on an academic degree. The title comes from the license more than it does the degree. (IMHO, a medical school grad with an MD who did not become a physician should NOT be called "doctor" for that reason.) I knew a nurse with a PhD who listed it in her materials when she was teaching, but it didn't appear on her badge when she was on the floor, and no one called her "doctor" inside the hospital where we worked--even though, obviously, she was a "doctor." But not in that context.

    There was a debate about whether or not counselors who go on to get a doctorate should use the degree--or the title "doctor"--in their professional practice. I feel it is dicey since the term connotes a level of professional practice, and if that person doesn't practice at that level, his/her PhD-in-whatever should not enter the picture, other than for biographical information (like the fact they own a dog or something).

    If it confuses, don't uses.
     
    Johann likes this.
  14. Johann

    Johann Well-Known Member

    Rich, I get this - but I still kind think it might have gone a lot differently, somewhere along the line, if that Doctorate had been awarded by the School of Duckology - the one a guy named Hendrik had, in the farmhouse in Denmark - or some other non-legitimate source. I'm guessing your military record, plus several unassailable degrees you'd already earned played a big part here. Still, people in high Government circles who have them, DO get called out on bogus degrees. And sometimes it makes headlines.

    Here's one article - no less than 463 Government employees with fake degrees - 23 of them high ranking officials. https://www.wired.com/2004/05/u-s-officials-sport-fake-degrees/

    Ah yes - another one. I remembered Laura Callahan and "Hamilton University."
    http://www.counterfeitdegrees.com/diploma-mills/high-level.htm

    "They" DO catch people, Rich. And if neither the Systems Engineering firm, nor anyone else checked up on your degree (perhaps behind your back?) - they probably figured they didn't need to, due to military service and prior accomplishments. And they were right.

    Just don't use the "Doctorado" you got from Costa Rica. Just kidding. :)
     
    Last edited: Aug 16, 2022
    Bill Huffman and Rich Douglas like this.
  15. Dustin

    Dustin Well-Known Member

    Ontario in particular is rather strict about this.

    For example, doctorate-holding social workers can't use the honorific Dr in Ontario if they would be mistaken for Licensed Psychologists or medical doctors.

    Obviously uneven enforcement but you'll find most social worker-therapists with doctors always list the post-nominals PhD if they list their credentials at all, but most will be on a first-name basis with clients.
     
  16. LearningAddict

    LearningAddict Well-Known Member

    I see a definite problem with a counselor using the title of 'Doctor' if the Doctorate is bogus. If it's a legit Doctorate but in a different field, then it can be deceptive if the intent is to use it to give the impression that they are a Doctor in the mental health field.

    Some feel that only licensed Psychologists that hold a Doctorate in Psychology should be called 'Doctor' in a clinical setting. I tend to lean toward that position more. In a hospital setting, I've heard Medical Doctors and Nurses having no problem referring to the licensed Doctor of Psychology on staff as "Doctor So and So". Considering all the red tape and general state-imposed baloney one has to often go through to become a licensed Psychologist, they really earned it and I think that was well understood.

    Some of the horror stories about the road to becoming a licensed Psychologist are as bad or worse than the foreign Medical School messes we hear about with students going into unreal debt and still getting denied a place in the US. Hearing about the way some supervisors charge Psychologist hopefuls the same rate per hour for supervision as they charge their clients is just a shame, and it borders on abusive when you take into account the cost of a good Doctoral degree program in Psychology that a student will have already had to pay for. One supervisor had a blog about it and was very unapologetic and uncaring of the plight. Commenters pushed back but there was no changing her mind.

    No matter how many people scream for reform with that path, reform that everyone knows needs to happen, it never comes. So no wonder so many try to find workarounds. That said, I'd prefer the workaround be with a legitimately accredited Doctorate in Psychology from a foreign school rather than a PhD in Medieval History from an American one because at least the person would have some Doctoral education that matches the field they practice in. Whether or not they can ever manage to get licensed with it is another story.
     
    Last edited: Aug 16, 2022
    Maxwell_Smart and Johann like this.
  17. Johann

    Johann Well-Known Member

    Most of us do - except the people with those degrees, it seems. :(
     
    Dustin likes this.
  18. Rich Douglas

    Rich Douglas Well-Known Member

    But they didn't. Before earning a PhD, I was a "senior trainer" at AT&T. The only thing that changed was the PhD in a field no one cared about and from a school no one had ever heard of (or checked up on).
     
  19. Rich Douglas

    Rich Douglas Well-Known Member

    I don't get the joke. I'm not being purposely obtuse or anything; I really don't get it?
     
    SteveFoerster likes this.
  20. Rich Douglas

    Rich Douglas Well-Known Member

    Now THIS is why Ontario is my second-favorite Canadian province.
     

Share This Page