Cart before the Horse?

The professions, in the formal sense, have separate proficiency examinations because there are bodies that have the responsibility for certification and licensing distinct from the Regional Accreditors.

The reason why there is such interest in proficiency examinations for MBAs, etc., is the failure of the Regional Accreditors.

You can go to Harvard or Stanford... Touro or University of Phoenix... and all destinations between and "earn" the same degree, the MBA.

The quality and rigor is so varying that the better schools / students want some way to differentiate themselves from the shitty schools/programs that grant the same degree. Hence you have additional, calls for proficiency exams, etc..

It is quite a mess.

 

Yes, American universities are soooo bad. Of course, that very British magazine, The Economist, just called the American university system the best in the world. Presumably, this would include the UK. I'll take their judgment over an anonymous troll's.

Rich Douglas

 

Rich, the lead definition of anonymous is not named or identified . That surely wouldn't fit in this case, there are plenty of names & identities.....take your pick.

Then again, a lesser definition is lacking individuality, distinction, or recognizability , so you may well have a point.


Bruce

 

Rich,

Are you listening to the little voices in you head again.

American universities are not soooo bad... American quality control is sooooo bad which results in "some" American universities being sooooo bad which results in some people getting bad degrees which they try to legitimize on DegreeInfo.

The fact is some American education is the envy of the world. The US leads in many (sorry, not all) fields. A great number of American universities, although perhaps not the envy of the world, are very solid academic institutions which would be accepted in any country. Then you have the remainder that are not at the level of the UK, etc..

The fact is, the majority of the US schools discussed on DegreeInfor arent' respected in US... where are the 1st or 2nd tier schools?

 

Really? How about you impress the hell out of all us Yanks and tell us from what "respected" institutions you received your degree(s) from?

I'll show you mine (CV) if you show me yours.

I won't hold my breath.


Bruce

 

That's because he's an anonymous troll who falls to ad hominem arguments when his unsupported "facts" fail.

Note the number of recent threads centered around "Ken" and his other aliases. This sort of thing is obviously a hobby for a very pathetic person. But, man, is it ever difficult to let a stupid statement pass without comment! Such is dealing with trolls.

Rich Douglas

 

You guys are funny,

"my gawd, the many has questioned the validity of a regionally accredited 4 week BA... he must be a troll!!!"

 

Such a clown!

Andy, when you're trying to be funny, you are such a clown! ROTFLMAO!

I seem to remember your waxing very, make that - VERY, poetic about how you maintained contact with your former students and colleagues at UoP, and you didn't, once again, have a clue about what has been going on at UoP!

WOW! The mind boggles at the ignorance.

You also didn't get the thrust of my post. It was NOT that I am against outcomes testing or any such thing for students.

It is about getting the faculty side of the equation up to snuff before laying the burden on students. That tenured deadwood every university has on its faculty (well, those that have tenure, elsewise they are not given contracts at places like UoP) was the point of my post.

When was the last time a senior instructor in your area, sat in on your class and gave you a thorough analysis of his/her impressions about what transpires in your classroom?

Tell me, was that on the twelfth of never, or the day after?

UoP facilitators do get visits and very thorough analysis every coup0le of years. We also have to update our teaching skills and interpersonal skills in mandated workshops. When was the last time you did any such thing?

Updating your professional background is good, but how about these other key areas? Still doing it the way you were taught decades ago? I'd bet on it.


jim

 

Re: Such a clown!

Jim - Too bad you don't what you're talking about.

At the institutions I teach at I'm being evaluated in several ways - student, peer and outcome assessment. At every institution I work for I face student evaluations. Also, I have administrators visit my electronic classroom to see what I'm doing at one institution. At the other, we're implementing peer assessment - of the classroom, exams and other material.

Further, I'm being measured by the outcomes of my students. At one institution we're using ACT subject area exam in business. At another we're using the ICCP exam.

Back to my earlier question - Has UoP implemented any sort of 3rd party outcome assessment? How about the ACT MBA exam? Or the ICCP exam? Or are you, as one poster suggested, using an easy, internally developed exam?

As for keeping up to date - I teach at creditable institutions. In order to be employed in the first place I had to earn a doctorate and have significant industry experience. To remain employed I have to conduct meaningful research and consult in my discipline. No - I don't teach the same thing I did 20 years ago - I'm given the support and time to keep up to date.

The best universities in the U.S. - choose your ranking list - employ full-time faculty on a similar basis (perhaps with a smattering of adjuncts to spice up the mix). For profits schools can't afford quality full-time faculty - because they're feeding their shareholders. Students get to pick where they learn.

Regards - Andy

 

Andy... you are making sense... you must be a troll!


DegreeInfo:
Where being a troll is a badge of honor!

 

Re: Re: Such a clown!

Nice to see you deflecting from the main part of my post, something you do continually. I would think you are not capable of understanding the words, Andy. Is the cart before the horse - are we shifting the thrust to the students instead of the faculty; shouldn't we clean out the deadwood, tenured faculty (yes, I'' bet there is more than one amoung your colleagues) before we go after the students?

You missed another part, I was talking about teaching the same WAY not THING.

Student evals of faculty? Everyone does it. No great shakes. All these turn out to be is popularity contests. I have been advocating that the university track students and five years after their graduation, ask them the value of what they learned. Once they have had an opportunity to put their learning into practice for a few years. That is where the rubber really meets the road. Not a meaningless end-of-course type survey done the last time the class meets.

That you know which student assessment exam is being used leads me to ask if can you state truthfully, categorically, that you do not teach to the assessment instrument AND prove it?

I can, because I don't want to know that measure is and what is on it.

You jape at UOP whenever the opportunity presents itself, yet your information on what is happening inside is so out of date as to have dinosaur dung on it. Yep, you who boasted about how you stayed in contact with your former collegues and with students.

You have ignorantly posted about assessments, learning teams, hours required for the degree and the like concerning UOP. And suffered being made a fool each time. Do you enjoy your masochism?

When it comes to what is happening at UOP, you are truly a mental midget, but that has not stopped you from publicly revealing your ignorance again and again.

You make statements above you cannot support empirically, just your passing gas:


***For profits schools can't afford quality full-time faculty - because they're feeding their shareholders.

Prove it, Andy. Not by brain farting, but real live numbers, replicable studies and the like.

You waffle, dodge and weave, Andy, as always. Implementing in-class visits by faculty in one university (which means the same as vaporware at this point, doesn't it?), electronic visitations at another. Not a bit different than what transpires at UOP. But while you are merely beginning implementation, UOP faculty peer evaluations go back a few years and each faciltator gets evaluated every two years. How about you, Andy? Every two years? More often, less often?

UOP's online peer evaluations started with the earliest versions of their online arm and that was, what, 10 years ago or so? How old is your effort? I doubt your university was even in the game then.

Anyway, wrap yourself in your academic roades, sit back in that rocker and read before replying.


jim

 

Re: Re: Re: Such a clown!

Jim - Let's go through point by point:

Is the cart before the horse - are we shifting the thrust to the students instead of the faculty; shouldn't we clean out the deadwood, tenured faculty (yes, I'' bet there is more than one amoung your colleagues) before we go after the students?

** their might be - but the point is that students walk away with the credential. Don't we care if they know (or can do) anything? Why should faculty be first? Why not work on both?

You missed another part, I was talking about teaching the same WAY not THING.

** ok - I'll respond to that - I certainly don't teach the same way. The results of outcome assessment and continual professional development impact both the WAY and the THINGs that I teach. Active learning and case based teaching are hot topics. I attend seminars, conduct research on teaching and particpate in teaching circles with my peers. I have the time to do this, of course, because I'm fortunate enough to be employed full-time. Certainly, I've certainly altered my style


Student evals of faculty? Everyone does it. No great shakes. All these turn out to be is popularity contests. I have been advocating that the university track students and five years after their graduation, ask them the value of what they learned. Once they have had an opportunity to put their learning into practice for a few years. That is where the rubber really meets the road. Not a meaningless end-of-course type survey done the last time the class meets.

** well, they aren't totally meaningless. Perhaps 5 years later the student will have more perspective - or maybe they will have forgotten the instructor.

That you know which student assessment exam is being used leads me to ask if can you state truthfully, categorically, that you do not teach to the assessment instrument AND prove it?

** Well, because we use 3rd party assessment exams - we don't know exactly what's on the exam until the student sits for the exam. We have an outline of what the exam covers - but certainly not the questions. If my school wrote their own assessment - as one poster in this thread suggested UoP has done - the fear of "teaching to the test" would certainly be greater.


I can, because I don't want to know that measure is and what is on it.

You have ignorantly posted about assessments, learning teams, hours required for the degree and the like concerning UOP. And suffered being made a fool each time. Do you enjoy your masochism?

** Hardly - your silly attacks make you quite the fool. I'll admit my knowledge of UoP is dated. Not surprisingly, current students and faculty have posted regarding the current status of the school. I'll let their comments stand on their own.


When it comes to what is happening at UOP, you are truly a mental midget, but that has not stopped you from publicly revealing your ignorance again and again.

** Frankly, I'm glad I'm no longer knowledgeable about UoP. As I said earlier, I teach at credible schools. I won't screw up my resume by even referencing UoP.

** One thing I did pick up at a recent conference came from an admissions person from a well known DL PhD program. Her comment was that she hadn't seen a UoP transcript with any GPAs under 3.80. She suspected grade inflation.


You make statements above you cannot support empirically, just your passing gas:

"***For profits schools can't afford quality full-time faculty - because they're feeding their shareholders."

Prove it, Andy. Not by brain farting, but real live numbers, replicable studies and the like.

** which I have in this newsgroup. I've shown using U.S. Government statistics how few full time faculty for-profits shools employ versus non-profit. I've shown the economics of for-profits that cause them to cut 20% or more of their instructional budgets to make room for profit. Unfortunately, you don't have the guts to discuss the numbers - only to make snide remarks.


You waffle, dodge and weave, Andy, as always. Implementing in-class visits by faculty in one university (which means the same as vaporware at this point, doesn't it?), electronic visitations at another. Not a bit different than what transpires at UOP. But while you are merely beginning implementation, UOP faculty peer evaluations go back a few years and each faciltator gets evaluated every two years. How about you, Andy? Every two years? More often, less often?

** Because I teach at brick and mortar schools I face continuous evalution. My students sit in class with other faculty members and they talk to the department chair on a daily basis. I can't hide.

UOP's online peer evaluations started with the earliest versions of their online arm and that was, what, 10 years ago or so? How old is your effort? I doubt your university was even in the game then.


** No - my univesity was in existance long before UoP was even founded. The institution has accessed teaching effectiveness for a long time.


jim [/B][/QUOTE]

 

I said no such thing.

I merely asked the source of your degree(s), if any. So, I ask again: How about you impress the hell out of all us Yanks and tell us from what "respected" institutions you received your degree(s) from?

And be forewarned....I will keep asking the same question, in every thread to which you post, over and over and over and over and over and over again, until you either respond or pull another disappearing act.


Bruce