But what if there was an internationally accredited program that is both flexible and affordable?

Discussion in 'General Distance Learning Discussions' started by Kriya shukla, Feb 2, 2018.

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  1. Kizmet

    Kizmet Moderator

  2. Steve Levicoff

    Steve Levicoff Well-Known Member

    I see . . . So you made a blatant misstatement of fact about something you knew absolutely nothing about.

    Don’t sweat it – there are a few people who are highly credentialed around here that do exactly the same thing. At least you had an excuse.

    It is not DI’s responsibility to do anything. DI merely provides a medium for communication, and its members provide its credibility (or lack thereof). As for warnings about NA, this entire thread is a warning about NA. And many threads contain warnings about other-than-RA schools. DI is fulfilling any obligation that might exist merelhy by making the forum available, and more.

    RA or the highway? Why, that must be l’il ol’ moi. Always was, and always will be.

    The fact that “(some)” NA credits will transfer to RA schools is a weak argument, since we are talking about exceptions to the rule. And the exceptions are few. The notion that, say, Liberty might accept credits from LBU (and even that notion was recently discredited) is a moot point. For transfer, I would want as many options as possible to be available to me, not as few options. And I would want the ability to transfer credits to be automatic, not to require major hurdles such as ACE or foreign credit evaluations.

    The fact is, if you go the NA or unaccredited route, you are closing doors, not opening them. You may not realize, or may deny, that you are closing doors - until the day you find you need that door open. And then you will come back to DI, whine about your dilemma, and give the rest of us a laugh.

    My response to that old argument is, “You don’t care now.” I didn’t want to go to grad school until I was almost done my B.A. I didn’t want to do a Ph.D. program until I was well into my M.A. program. But when I did decide to go on, I didn’t have barriers holding me back, like having graduated from an NA or unaccredited program. And, in today's market, the master's degree is the new bachelor's, and the doctorate is quickly becoming the new master's.

    Ultimately, however, look at how often folks on this forum argue about the validity of NA credentials. An NA degree may, in fact, be adequate in fulfilling your goals, but in an academic environment (and even DI is an academic environment) you will constantly have to defend your decision to go NA. And you will constantly run into people like me who will laugh at you. This entire thread is an attempt by some to justify NA credentials.

    NA credentials will, in fact, meet some people’s needs. But if their needs or their goals change, their NA credentials will become a hindrance. And, in general, you can’t say that about RA degrees.

    That’s also not to say that a degree being RA in and of itself doesn’t present a hindrance, or that an RA degree is automatically better than an NA degree. I’d almost rather have a credible NA degree than an RA degree from some of the for-profits we frequently read about. They may not be degree mills according to the traditional definition, but I’ve come to consider schools like Phoenix and Argosy to be a joke. There are, indeed, exceptions to every rule. (Then, speaking of jokes, there are the people who are being bitten in the ass by having gone for doctoral degrees in leadership, even if they are RA, but that's another discussion.)

    But as to the general rule of “RA or the highway?” You betcha.
     
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  3. Kizmet

    Kizmet Moderator

    OK, a couple more things . . . the first is obvious. The vast majority of people do not work in an academic environment and so that micro-issue is entirely irrelevant to most degree earners.
    Number 2: You will not "constantly have to defend your decision..." You might have to explain in an interview that your degree is accredited by an agency approved by CHEA/DOE but as we know, most employers do not understand the fine points of accreditation and they really don't care. Once you're employed, people care about what you know, what you can do, not where you went to school. Number 3: there are not a lot of other people like you and so no one is going to constantly be running into anyone laughing about degrees. Most people don't understand these issues and neither do they care. If you're highlighting weak arguments, this is the weakest. Number 4: NA credentials do not require "justification." They exist. Many people have NA degrees and are pretty happy with them. If this were not true then the schools that offer them would be forced to close. Do they have limitations? Yes they do. Can these limitations be serious enough to dissuade someone from earning an NA degree? Yes they can, depending on your goals. Personally I would not earn an NA degree but I am not prepared to castigate people who have different opinions, goals, etc. If RA is the "gold standard" then NA is the "silver standard" and for a lot of people that is good enough to get them where they want to go.

    Another note, based on something that came up in another recent thread. Increasingly, people from non-US countries are turning to the US for their higher education. This is reflected in online programs especially, for obvious reasons. We see it reflected in our membership here at DegreeInfo. Whatever distinction exists between RA and NA universities, these distinctions are virtually lost inside the borders of another country.
     
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  4. Phdtobe

    Phdtobe Well-Known Member

    I was about to quit DI but this excellent post took me out of my short-lived self-imposed exile.
    I think this is a balanced response, and true to life experience, that many students will encounter. My first post-secondary diploma was from an accredited, (but non-transferable like NA program in Canada). It was a costly mistake because like you I wanted to continually progress. I basically had to repeat everything i did in that first program. It was a long time ago when I was new immigrant to Canada.
    Although DI has no duty to members, we who are the know should continue the tradition of DI in providing first-class advice. There is no pressing reasons to sink to the bottom and to recommeded all accreditation as equal. It is malfeasance.
     
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  5. Phdtobe

    Phdtobe Well-Known Member

    I am not sure what agenda you are promoting, but that is an utterly false statement, and could be quite harmfull to people outside of the USA who are seeking a quality education in the USA. The distinction is absolutely crucial and you better believe that and stop spewing these knowingly misstatements and misinformation. The statement you just made is unconscionable seeing that a poor farmer who has been saving for his hold lifeto send his child to a USA institution may up being devastated when his kid return to his/her homeland with a worthless degree.
     
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  6. dlbb

    dlbb Active Member

  7. dlbb

    dlbb Active Member

    Some great points that from Steve and Phdtobe.

    This site really does do a disservice to its membership when the forum leadership blithely espouses the seriously flawed premise that all accreditation is largely to some extent equal. It is disturbing that this resistance continues.

    Having a subforum that discusses accreditation issues broadly does not serve as adequate warning or notice to the vulnerable persons who will be victims of these NA and unaccredited institutions. I know..."fake news." All accreditation is equal, right? That NA degree of questionable value will only end up costing a few years or thousands of dollars in debt. (What's an extra $50,000 for a very limited use credential that may serve only as a well decoration?) In the forum that Kizmet advocates that serves as warning, we see as a top post something from a member wondering why unaccredited degrees are not equal to accredited degrees. Much of that subforum is insular chatter that would not do well to point out these differences to members, and even if that post clears things up for the good pastor (I do not care to read it), as time goes on, that post will fade. So how are new members supposed to learn? It certainly would be nice if there were clear warnings about NA, unaccredited, and even certain for-profits (such as U. of Phoenix, Argosy), in very strongly worded language.

    Protection for vulnerable persons--it's too bad a forum about distance education can't have that, and cares more about open and free chatter for strange, unaccredited universities. Again, I am all for that chatter, but think it should be in an appropriate subforum with warnings.
     
  8. heirophant

    heirophant Well-Known Member

    I've never heard of Unicaf and am a little skeptical about it. (Perhaps unjustifiably.) I'm not skeptical about the University of South Wales and would agree that it's probably a better choice than the U. of the People.

    California. (Is that part of the US any longer?) But Degreeinfo attracts participants from all around the world. I think that's a wonderful thing and I want to encourage it. So we shouldn't adopt too much of a US-centric view.

    If Unicaf is awarding degrees (and it apparently does through its "Unicaf University", then I'm rather doubtful (until I learn more). If it's just providing scholarships to African students so that they can afford to enroll in distance degree programs offered by the U. of South Wales, I don't see any problem. And if the USW has somehow "validated" Unicaf University to award diplomas with USW's name on them, without students having any direct contact with USW or its professors. then I'm skeptical but not entirely dismissive. (I'm just naturally skeptical about those British "validation" arrangements, though I realize they are traditional and accepted in the British context.)

    That being said, I don't anticipate any problem using a degree from a properly recognized British university for employment or graduate admissions purposes in the United States. Happens all the time. British universities in general have a very good reputation here.

    We do? When?

    Yes, I've posted in the past about my California-approved favorites and just the other day talked up NY Regents accredited, but not RA, PhD programs at Rockefeller University, Cold Spring Harbor Laboratory, the American Museum of Natural History and Memorial Sloan Kettering Cancer Institute. I think that these are very competitive PhD programs for academic employment. (The multiple Nobel prizes help.) I've also praised the Institute of Buddhist Studies in Berkeley, because it's perhaps the best example of an academically impeccable non-accredited (it is an RA candidate) school that I know of. (I'd have no hesitation about enrolling in its MBS (Master of Buddhist Studies) program if I could afford it.)

    But that being said, historically the complaint about Degreeinfo has been just the opposite, that we have too many "RA or no way" zealots here.

    So you think that you are in some position to attach an authoritative warning to everyone else's opinions? That sounds a little arrogant to me.

    I'd prefer that everyone have the opportunity to put their views out there so that readers of the board can make up their own minds for themselves.
     
    Last edited: Jan 26, 2019
  9. dlbb

    dlbb Active Member

    No, it doesn't appear I have any leadership role DI, so I am not in a position to do so. I think in good conscience it would behoove us to adopt such a policy.

    It seems many have made that choice with regards to NA and unaccredited "offerings" and paid the price for that mistake. So we throw up our hands and sigh, "What can we do?" And complacently we do...nothing. The board becomes a cesspool of unfiltered content, where vulnerable people are left to make costly mistakes, instead of what could have been positive, life-changing decisions for the better.

    Here is one testimony about a costly mistake with regards to Argosy: https://www.degreeinfo.com/index.php?threads/if-i-could-live-my-life-over-again.53227/
    It is neither NA, nor unaccredited, but it is a predatory for-profit, and we could categorize those together. The commonality: they are predatory. She was a member of this site, and the lack of warnings seem to have done her well.

    A site like DI can do good, but the opposite can be true as well. "Fake news," right?
     
  10. sanantone

    sanantone Well-Known Member

    While I've made many people angry on this forum with my criticisms of for-profit schools, her problem is not really that she earned a degree at Argosy. She would likely have these issues with a doctoral degree in leadership from a non-profit school. One of my professors in my master's degree program in security studies had a PhD in leadership from a private, non-profit university. He landed his tenure-track position based on having at least 18 related graduate hours from his master's degree. I don't know why he no longer teaches at my alma mater, but he hasn't had a full-time teaching position since. He encouraged me to get the same degree several years ago, but I chose not to apply because I knew of the limitations of a leadership degree. Many schools are not as flexible in accepting unrelated doctoral degrees.
     
  11. dlbb

    dlbb Active Member

    Agreed. The degree in question does come into play. While you rightly point out some successful outcomes from that doctorate, part of that was due to a time in the past where there was a scarcity of qualified people; that situation has since changed.

    I actually had hoped to edit out my comments about Argosy, but it was too late. For-profit, RA schools produce many successful outcomes for students. But there does come with an increased risk of poor retention, less chance of graduating, some lack of respect for the schools, etc. Not every for-profit institution is going to be like U. of Phoenix or Argosy, and some are going to be high quality, very worthy programs. Again I wish I had the ability to edit that comment, as what is true about a small number of for-profit schools does not extend to all of them.
     
  12. Kizmet

    Kizmet Moderator

    Another mistake you're making is your assumption that I could make the changes you want. Even if I agreed with you (which I do not) I do not have the authority to make the changes you wish for. None of the Moderators do. There are two things you could do to move toward your goal. The first is that you could create and maintain a thread on the board. You could post the information that you wish others to see/know. Our friend AsianStew did this with his thread Beginners Guide . . . found at the top of the main forum. He's done such a good job with it we turned it into a sticky thread. Be careful though, if you try to fill that thread with unsupported opinions you'll just find yourself in an endless argument. Perhaps you shouldn't idly complain that others will not do what you want done. Perhaps you need to take an active role and do it yourself. Your second option is to go straight to the top . . . Chip. Chip is the owner of the board and the ultimate arbiter of all things on this site. Convince him and it is a done deal. Beyond that you can simply continue to bitch about the imperfect nature of DI or you can bail. Whatever.
     
  13. Phdtobe

    Phdtobe Well-Known Member

    I think there is a win-win alternative. DI members should aim to provide the best advice whenever possible. If NA is the best choice, that could be recommended with the known caveats. But those situations are few if any. If for students anything will do, then that will be on them
    =
    Moderators do an excellent job on DI. There are essential to DI. However, verisimilitudinous information provided from moderators has the potential of novices to DI making bad decisions.
     
  14. dlbb

    dlbb Active Member

    I do mean to direct comments to Kizmet directly, as I believe she is just one of many moderators, though more active. It is just an idea I have that the leadership can decide upon or ignore as they see fit. I can only make strong arguments.

    A sticky post is an excellent idea. I would not want the role of writing such a post. I think Phdtobe might be best for it, as he seems more balanced and perhaps less inflammatory than myself or others who might share my views. I would not want to the responsibility of maintaining it. All the arguments against NA and unaccredited can be found on many web sites and are known to many here, but just having them more accessible to newbies might be a good idea.
     
  15. Kizmet

    Kizmet Moderator

  16. Phdtobe

    Phdtobe Well-Known Member

    No sure about about the link , but as a former CFP, and current CPA, I am capable of doing my own investment research.
    =
    I think you are just being facetious. Your intransigent in wanting to provide misleading information is disappointing. I know that you are better than this.
     
  17. Kizmet

    Kizmet Moderator

    Your characterization of the information I have posted as “misleading” is inaccurate. You may disagree with an idea but that doesn’t make it wrong or bad. You are expressing an opinion, not a fact. If you want to prove me wrong then do so. But you’ll need more than unsupported opinions if you want to succeed.
     
  18. heirophant

    heirophant Well-Known Member

    We already do, as far as I can see. Of course, this isn't just a career-counseling board. There are discussion threads about all manner of subjects. There may be a variety of opinion, but that's to be expected. And it isn't necessarily a bad thing either. It helps people hear all sides of what can sometimes be complicated issues.

    Perhaps that's true for a 'Phdtobe'. But many of us aren't in that particular situation. I'm certainly not. There are lots of variables, and not all of us give them the same weights. It's probably helpful for prospective students to hear about the many considerations that might go into a choice of program. Accreditation is just one of them, and sometimes (as with me) not the most important one.

    When it comes to distance learning, I think that our moderators are very astute. I can't think of any time that anything they said led potential students astray, inducing them to make bad decisions. If anyone disagrees, it might be helpful to see some examples. If by chance it ever happens, I think that the general consensus on the board would quickly correct it, or at least make clear that there are additional considerations that might need to be taken into account.
     
    Last edited: Jan 27, 2019
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  19. Lerner

    Lerner Well-Known Member

    UNISA is international and RA equivlent. Afordible degrees.
     
  20. dlbb

    dlbb Active Member

    That's not an accurate assessment. New users are expected to wade through thousands of posts and understand when there are people such as yourself may support NA in spite of numerous reasons to avoid it. Education doesn't need to be tired to a career board, and I don't think anyone is interested in that. Career options aside, there is no legitimate reason 99% of the time to sink thousands into a credential that will have very limited utility. The quality of education one receives should be able to meet the rigors of regional accreditation.

    It should be one of the top considerations. The fact that it is not recognized by some members underscores this need for more transparency. Some simply are not able to understand all the relevant issues and for various reasons make short-sighted choices. These members then feel compelled to share their opinions and "wisdom" on NA and unaccredited, which then makes things seem more murky for the uninformed. It's kind of like wanting to argue that aliens killed JFK with a moon laser. You can argue anything effectively, right or wrong.

    I don't think anyone is saying moderators are leading people astray. It's just the silence on certain issues or complacently allowing others to share their "wisdom" about NA and unaccredited, etc., that may allow others to make very poor choices in the absence of better information. Yes, there is information buried in thousands of posts, but if I am a naive, vulnerable student who is excited to start an online degree and am new to DI, and I come across a post about this exciting new program at Give Us Your Money University, and I have others making idle chatter on it (as often is the case) and maybe someone chiming in about how they like it, then I might just go sign up for it--even though it was mentioned as being NA. I found my NA school, time to register, no need to search through thousands of posts to try to understand nuances about accreditation. There is nobody here to chime in on every post where someone speaks approvingly of NA or unaccredited schools, and it would be tedious to do so, particularly when others may come to sing praises about an NA program they fancy. It can be like trying to get through to someone invested in a multi-level marketing scam, such as Amway; they tune out everything they don't want to hear and keep believing what they want to be true.
     

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