But what if there was an internationally accredited program that is both flexible and affordable?

Discussion in 'General Distance Learning Discussions' started by Kriya shukla, Feb 2, 2018.

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  1. Kizmet

    Kizmet Moderator

    OK, well you quote my post about UNICAF and then say "...at least the degrees from USW have utility and substance." (Post #17) I'm putting 2 and 2 together and coming up with 4. How about you?
     
  2. Phdtobe

    Phdtobe Well-Known Member

    Yes I can see . The comparison was between Unicaf/usw and that nonprofit forprofit free costly university.
     
  3. SteveFoerster

    SteveFoerster Resident Gadfly Staff Member

    This community has participants and readers worldwide. Not everything is about Americans and the U.S.

    Alternatively, people could draw their own conclusions rather than being expected to follow yours.
     
    sideman likes this.
  4. sideman

    sideman Well Known Member

    Whoo boy. Here we go again. I don't have a problem protecting unsuspecting prospective students from unaccredited "offerings". But what is wrong with NA "offerings"? Most people that come to this site are adult learners in search of ways to either start and/or finish a degree as efficiently as possible. So going on the premise that they have the ability to reason for themselves and think logically; as long as NA fills their needs then what's wrong with that? And why are they lumped in with odd places and the unaccredited? Last time I checked the USDOE and CHEA have something to say about this.
     
  5. Kizmet

    Kizmet Moderator

    Or . . . or . . . we could allow free expression of ideas and values and then rely on good members such as yourself to alert people to the possible dangers of unaccredited degrees. In that way, the precious snowflakes might actually become better informed and, you know, educated. I'm just sayin'
     
  6. Phdtobe

    Phdtobe Well-Known Member

    I have no issues with NA accredited institutions. However, I think we do an injustice when we compared and leave the impression that uop or similar accredited is an equivalent to USW.
    Uop should be compare to other NAs schools.
    USW should be compare to your average state school.
     
  7. Kizmet

    Kizmet Moderator

    Well, you're right in that they are not exactly in the same category. But neither is USW and "average state schools" For one thing, USW is not even American so you're comparing schools from two very different educational systems.
     
  8. dlbb

    dlbb Active Member


    Target audience

    This forum is created by John Bear based on his works, which are directed towards a US audience, so while any site can have a worldwide audience, I think it is safe to say the target audience is US-based. Perhaps we could have a sub-forum for reputable foreign universities without warnings. Having a degree from a foreign university raises some questions for employers, but if it is reputable and accredited, it is not the same as having an NA or unaccredited degree.

    Whether adult learners or traditional students, many lack the capacity to distinguish between NA or RA. Even if explained in detail, it is doubtful that many truly understand some of the ramifications, leading them to very expensive mistakes and credentials that sometimes have questionable value. (That's not to speak too broadly, as there are cases where some vocational programs may have some value, though typically more limited in comparison to RA counterparts.) Many students, including adult learners, are vulnerable and naive, and they are easily misled. I would hate for students to spend exorbitant amounts of money going to school to earn an NA degree and discover those credits have little or no value when they decide to get an RA credential, just to allow people the luxury of "drawing their own conclusions."

    This is not the 1990s. Numerous RA schools provide the necessary flexibility for distance-based education and low cost for students. Asynchronous delivery is very commonplace. It will be fairly uncommon that NA is the best choice. Too often I see references to these strange places, such as U of P, or people promoting unaccredited or NA schools, and it is just baffling. I can understand if someone runs their own unaccredited school or perhaps went to an NA school and wants to save face, but really people should know better by this point. Bottom line--it is "malpractice" for a place such as this to not have clear warnings against NA or unaccredited schools, so putting them in a subforum is a good idea.
     
  9. Kizmet

    Kizmet Moderator

    Actually, this is entirely untrue. John Bear is not the creator of this board. As for the rest of your rant, you are of course welcome to your own opinion but it is the opinion of the owner, the moderators and the majority of members to be inclusive, not exclusive. As for "malpractice," I think it's really a pretty silly idea. The internet is entirely full of all sorts of people expressing all sorts of ideas and it's caveat emptor all the way down. The best I can offer you is the suggestion that you stay away from threads that you find distressing. And please don't sue me, I haven't kept up on my malpractice insurance.

    [​IMG]
     
  10. newsongs

    newsongs Active Member

    Warnings against NA? I guess someone should inform CHEA so they can save face too.

    It takes all kinds of schools to meet the needs of all kinds of people. And all kinds of people participate on this forum.
     
  11. Phdtobe

    Phdtobe Well-Known Member

    My opinion which does not mean much- but if we are recommending NA, then we need to also include NA limitations. I will always recommend potential students to ask their questions to DI because DI is the best, however, With that recommendation comes some responsibility to be transparent, and to give honest advice. All accreditation is not equal. In the USA, RA is the gold standard. This is not to be negative to NA, because NA also has its place in learning.
     
    dlbb likes this.
  12. sideman

    sideman Well Known Member

    Malpractice? Now that is an interesting concept. This term is generally attributed to law or medicine. Since when has a forum been accused of malpractice? Well I guess it has now.

    You continue to link NA colleges with unaccredited schools. If you were to simply take the time to do your research you would find that that just is not the case. Regardless of anyone's opinion, NA is recognized by USDOE and CHEA. Unless you're a member of one of these then your opinion is just that...an opinion.

    Give adult learners a little more credit. This is usually not their first foray into higher education. Most adults that come here don't have "exorbitant amounts of money". Once they get a whiff of how much some schools charge, and this includes higher tuition RA schools too (not just expensive NA), they generally know which questions to ask and to whom. Damn straight it's not the 1990's. People are more informed than ever. If you feel it is your right and obligation to set them straight, then have at it. Just keep in mind that you are prejudiced in your opinion and can't see both sides of the coin.

    And finally, Dr. Bear is thrown into the mix. Dr. Bear is not the founder of DI. He even states this in his books, should you take the time to open one. This has completely destroyed any credibility you attempted to create. And again, as pointed out, not all foreign universities are equivalent. At least with an NA college you have two substantial U.S. government institutions giving their blessing.
     
  13. dlbb

    dlbb Active Member

    I have never read any of Dr. Bear's books, nor do I know the history of this forum. I only know him from his postings. I am in error, and I apologize to him for bringing his name into this.

    I am aware who recognizes national accreditation, so any further research would be unnecessary. The value of national accreditation remains the same, whether or not people here wish to recognize this. Maybe they believe it is "fake news."

    Why do you want to recommend NA schools to students when a large number of those credits simply will not be recognized by RA schools? I think that alone is enough.

    As I mentioned, some NA schools provide valid, vocational training, and those schools have their place and can be beneficial. If it is for an academic program, which I think is the bulk of the audience for this site, then there is no question that NA should be avoided. What is so wrong about providing warnings about institutions with NA? Is it an advertising issue? Do they contribute to the site? I don't keep up, so forgive me if that is the case.

    I thought the forum was supposed to provide guidance for people seeking help and information on educational opportunities. I thought it would be instructive to extend a familiar concept beyond its usual context. Thus, we can find that it is akin to malpractice to recommend NA to most learners. This is assuming that DI purports to provide sound educational guidance and advice to learners. Doing so while knowing the myriad issues associated with NA still remains akin to malpractice. If the purpose of DI is something else, than my usage of this concept would not be appropriate.

    To not provide warnings in my opinion makes DI lose its credibility. There is a need to be transparent about limitations. Call it a warning or call it whatever you want. As long as this information is clearly provided, then students can make their own informed decisions.
     
  14. Kizmet

    Kizmet Moderator

    You have made some very basic mistakes in regards to your understanding of what DegreeInfo is and isn't. Perhaps this misunderstanding is due to your having rushed a bit when reading through the Terms of Service, something everyone is required to do prior to being given membership privileges on this site. If this is the case, it is easily remedied by simply reviewing the TOS, found at the top of most of the for a

    https://www.degreeinfo.com/index.php?threads/degreeinfo-terms-of-service.28453/

    Thanks for your participation
     
    Last edited: Jan 26, 2019
  15. dlbb

    dlbb Active Member

    Thanks for understanding.
     
  16. Phdtobe

    Phdtobe Well-Known Member

    DI is a (most) credible website on distance education. I have seen where people have made life-changing decisions because of the excellent advice being offered here. We should not dilute because of expediency.
     
  17. dlbb

    dlbb Active Member

    This is true, but I am sure there may be some bitter disappointments where people signed up for NA or unaccredited schools due to poor advice, misunderstandings or simple failure to disclose information. I have interacted with young people in person who were convinced that their NA school really was just as good as (or even better than) RA counterparts, and unfortunately I could not dissuade them. Their mentality seemed to be similar to people who are in multi-level marketing like Amway, pyramid schemes, etc. They want so much to believe.

    If someone fully understands what they are paying for, such as a retired person who wants a hobby to keep busy, that's one thing, although even then I personally feel it could be partly exploitative. That's more the exception rather than the rule.
     
    Phdtobe likes this.
  18. Kizmet

    Kizmet Moderator



    There are some people who continue to adhere to the old "RA or the highway" philosophy but the fact is that this is less true now than in the past. The objective reality of this can be seen in two ways. The first is that credits earned at (some) NA schools are now accepted in transfer to (some) RA schools. This shift indicates that there is a growing respect for some NA schools by some RA schools. As this level of acceptance increases it constitutes a measure that can be tracked through time. We have multiple threads in which people discuss transferring NA credits to RA schools and I fully expect that this trend will continue. The second is simply the growing understanding that many employers neither understand nor care about this alleged NA/RA distinction. They say, "Is the school accredited by an agency accepted by CHEA?" In the case of NA schools the answer is yes and so that's all the employer cares about. Some people might say "Well, your NA degree isn't going to get you into law school, or an RA grad school, or whatever." Many people will respond, "I don't care. I never wanted to go to grad school." What we are talking about (this is an old time John Bear concept) is the utility of the degree. Does the degree do for you what you want it to do? Did you get that job? Get that promotion? Get that raise? If yes then it was useful and perhaps, in the end, that is the ultimate test. Of course, we've also seen some people make use of degree mill (fraudulent) degrees and that doesn't mean that those are valid or respectable. However, that's a separate issue that is best left for another day.
     
    Phdtobe likes this.
  19. Phdtobe

    Phdtobe Well-Known Member

    It should never be RA or nothing. That is just a silly position for anyone to take. Many students may not care about the limitations of NA. The limitations of NA are real and not perceived and therefore limited the utility of NA. To say otherwise is not genuine. Ideally, it would be ideal to steer students towards NA because of price, but there could be serious ramification in term of credits transfer, and professional and employment acceptance.
     
  20. dlbb

    dlbb Active Member

    I did acknowledge there is some utility for NA. Some students are so naive and young, they may not even understand what grad school is or have an idea what they may wish to do in 20 years. I still don't see how a separate subforum for NA with postings of limitations harms the ability to share information or discuss NA for those who decide to go that route.

    Cost can be an issue, but cheaper, cheapest, or easiest is often not the best way. You can talk about utility of the degree, but there is also the matter of quality of education. Some of the NA and unaccredited programs are so substandard I doubt they really come away learning very much or well prepared for the future. That quality of education is why a lot of RA does not accept NA.

    As a digression, I will observe some people seem intent on getting the easiest, quickest, or least effort credits, however possible. Maybe converting NA credits to RA is another way to do this; I had not even thought about that. This tendency is true for students who try to acquire credits through easy tests. They care about education only to the extent that it gives them a credential, or worse yet they do not understand what they are missing. Or they may wish to string together whatever random assortment of easy classes that will earn them a credential from whatever school is as flexible and indiscriminate as possible (the big three). It's certainly still an accomplishment to graduate, there is no discounting that, but again if they do this excessively it is likely the quality of education will suffer. I think if students do this, they likely are not selecting demanding majors that lend themselves so easily to this. Unfortunately, they do not get to experience a well designed major with courses taught by professors. So how well they are prepared for the future can be questionable. Some certainly find jobs, get promotions, etc., but for others it may be very limiting.
     

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