Brian Thompson, victim.

We have a health care problem in this country. We pay far more per capita for healthcare in this country but our healthcare results are mediocre compared to other well to do countries. Part of the reason for this is medical insurance companies but not the only reason. We can't blame the insurance companies for murder. The fix would be far more than just the insurance companies.

 

That is the thing, companies are allowed to do this within the legal framework. That is the problem.

Yes, they were entitled to the healthcare coverage they paid for. There are tens of thousands of documented cases of people being denied treatment that should have been covered by their plan. If I withhold lifesaving medicine that someone has paid for, and they die, that's murder.

Again, the laws are written in favor of corporations. You keep using law as justification while also admitting that their practices are questionable.

But that is not the argument. You are making a strawman here. The issue is for people with ACTIVE HEALTHCARE PLANS that they are paying for and that should cover these services, but are systemically denied so people either give up or take the long and laborious process of filing a grievance (delay), which often takes many steps since insurance companies like to defend their initial position.

The better comparison would be you get in an accident and are injured, but the insurance company says that the lifesaving operation is not necessary and delay or deny you coverage for the procedure.

 

Yes it is more than just insurance companies, but insurance companies are a large part of the problem.

 

Yes, they are. They are not as big a part of the problem as I used to think though. It's much more complicated. For example, the UK and Canadian systems seem much better and insurance companies aren't involved. Years ago I was talking to someone from Europe who had universal healthcare in his country and was surprised that it seemed to work at least as well there as it did in the UK and Canada and they did have insurance companies involved. I think that was Denmark but maybe it was Netherlands. Sorry I can't remember for sure. Anyway the article I linked to earlier had a pretty good explanation of our current system compared to others.
https://www.pgpf.org/article/how-does-the-us-healthcare-system-compare-to-other-countries/

 

This is why issues like these need strong champions—especially on the legislative side—to drive meaningful change. Severe penalties for delays are essential to ensure that insurance companies are held accountable, and medical providers are deterred from overcharging insurers.

Organizations already invest heavily in compliance, security, and other regulatory obligations because they understand the steep penalties for breaches or liability. The same standard of accountability should apply to insurance companies and medical service providers.
In addition to the existing regulations, new measures should be introduced, and enforcement must be significantly improved. Accountability cannot exist without robust oversight and swift consequences for violations.

Some states take steps to help people-
Governor Gavin Newsom signed a package of bills that will strengthen protections for consumers, addressing issues that have put financial strain on Californians while setting new standards for transparency and accountability across industries.
“Nobody wants to get ripped off, whether it’s a small subscription fee that’s seemingly impossible to cancel or massive medical debts which force families into financial ruin. We’re strengthening protections for Californians across the board and helping save consumers money.”
Governor Gavin Newsom
Medical debt relief
SB 1061 by Senator Monique Limón (D-Santa Barbara) targets the devastating impact of medical debt on consumers. Under this new law, medical debt will no longer be included on consumers’ credit reports,

 

By implication, you're advocating for a novel definition of murder. Again, you've given away the store.

Pardon me if I am skeptical that every case is exactly the same.

Well, again, that is your claim.

No, it isn't. In order to define that as murder, you have to redefine the term. Moreover, your depiction is simplistic to the point of absurdity.

Ahh. One big conspiracy. United Healthcare is out there murdering people on the daily, and no one can do anything about it because our system of law enforcement is permanently bound by laws that favor corporations. Seems legit.

Now you're getting it. "Murder" is not a subjective category you get to decide on a whim.

No, I didn't comment on United Healthcare's practices. While I have my own opinions on healthcare (they mainly have to do with tort law reform and greater liberties for non-profit healthcare suppliers), I've never shared those here.

Fine. My point is, that even if that is the case, it is still not murder.

Let's go with that. Does such action constitute murder if one dies as a result of the denial of coverage? In order to say, "Well, yes, that is murder," you'd have to demonstrate both intent and causality--neither of which is possible.

 

Accepting the premise that the victim was a murderer (and I don't), murdering a murderer is still murder.

 

California charged PG&E with manslaughter, but those charges were dismissed last year.

https://apnews.com/article/pge-zogg-wildfire-criminal-charges-dropped-4130b74c8ae2b5c79f7355b730aaec51

There's been misinformation passed around on social media regarding the AI system. There's a lawsuit over the AI system being used for Medicare Advantage claims for covering post-acute care at nursing homes. The lawsuit claims that the AI system has a 90% error rate, but it was not rejecting 90% of claims. After the AI system was implemented, the rejection rate went from 10.9% to 22.7%. The customers were not completely denied care; they were denied recommended placement in a nursing home, so they received alternative but potentially less effective care.

https://www.foxbusiness.com/markets/unitedhealthcare-accused-relying-ai-algorithms-deny-medicare-advantage-claims

For UnitedHealth to be charged with manslaughter, we have to first know whether any of those patients died because their post-acute rehab was cut short.

The Mangiones are in the nursing home business, so that makes one think.

 

Lol okay, call it what you want then. Either way the action to deny coverage contributed to the death of the individual. Coverage that was paid for and wrongly denied.

Below are some sources detailing this reality:
*Delay, Deny, Defend: Why Insurance Companies Don't Pay Claims and What You Can Do About It by Jay M. Feinman
*UnitedHealthcare Tried to Deny Coverage to a Chronically Ill Patient. He Fought Back, Exposing the Insurer’s Inner Workings.
https://www.propublica.org/article/unitedhealth-healthcare-insurance-denial-ulcerative-colitis
*How Often Do Health Insurers Deny Patient Claims?https://www.usnews.com/news/health-news/articles/2024-12-11/how-often-do-health-insurers-deny-patient-claims
*Killing of UnitedHealthcare exec ignites patient anger over insurance
https://www.reuters.com/business/healthcare-pharmaceuticals/americans-face-challenges-health-insurance-costs-rise-delays-mount-2024-12-09/

 

Global | Potential for further attack on business leaders: We assess that violent attacks on business leaders globally will almost certainly remain extremely rare in the coming years (Dragonfly Intelligence [geopolitical and security advisory firm], assessment issued to clients December 13, 2024, and published to the web December 17, 2024)