Big mouth DETC challenge

Discussion in 'Accreditation Discussions (RA, DETC, state approva' started by Ed Edwards, Feb 13, 2013.

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  1. Ed Edwards

    Ed Edwards Member

    I am (was) a DETC hater. I didn’t know why, mostly just because I guess it seemed like the thing to be and it made me feel like I knew something, and it seemed to be the general theme and reason for this board. My wife went to a DETC school for a short time, and we changed schools because of the perceptions I had about that choice.

    Then I got myself on the wrong side of an argument with some of the big haters and big talkers here, as there is so much unfounded authoritative looking BS here about DETC being ‘inferior’, and the arguments don’t seem that sound to me. So I said to myself, F these people I am going to get some facts and burry DETC by exposing their inferior policies and standards, going to the source. Currently, as I see it, the speculation is effect based not cause based, meaning that all the arguments against them boil down to something close to “we don’t like them because other people don’t like them”, ad infinitum.

    So I read their accreditation handbook and supplemental materials found here, and I couldn’t find anything bad. In fact, it seems pretty tight to me: http://www.detc.org/accreditationhandbook/index.htm

    So here is my fact based challenge. Show me a DETC policy that is inferior to a regional policy. Put them side by side and explain why it is inferior. That’s is, no other rhetoric or BS or speculation. Then we can look at the facts and see what we think. Don’t call me names. Don’t claim bogus outrage over the task or how this isn't how to compare. Don’t claim ‘because you said so and you are so smart and we have this 10 year old study of a bunch of people not liking them’. Don't claim whatever...

    If they are inferior I will be the first to carry the torch, however as a reasonable person who had my own potentially baseless issues with them, if they are not, let’s get that cleaned up also, because that word inferior has a lot of weight about it.
     
  2. Tireman 44444

    Tireman 44444 Well-Known Member

    And we are off........
     
  3. Maniac Craniac

    Maniac Craniac Moderator Staff Member

    :haha:

    Ultimately, I think the fact that anyone would go so far as to argue about this is silly. Discussion, sure. Arguments and name-calling? Sheesh.

    On a tangentally related topic- my library is not regionally nor nationally accredited and my years of rigorous study there have resulted in no degree nor certificate- but I'm extremely satisfied with the education it has provided for me.
     
  4. CalDog

    CalDog New Member

    Even if DETC's policies were exactly the same as the regional agencies, would that settle the argument ?

    The ACC and the Southland Conference play college basketball under exactly the same rules. They both follow exactly the same NCAA Division I regulations. They both get one automatic bid to the NCAA Tournament. As far as I know, there aren't any significant differences in conference policies.

    Yet even though both conferences have similar or identical rules and policies, most college hoops fans would argue that the quality of play is still significantly different.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Feb 13, 2013
  5. Ed Edwards

    Ed Edwards Member

    I don't know anything about this, however I suspect that teams from both conferences are considered 'legitimate' basketball teams. On any given day, I don't think you are suggesting that there would be no need to play a game between teams in either conference, because everyone knows that one conference is 'inferior' and therefor will lose the game. If you are suggesting such insight I suggest a quick drive to Vegas as March Madness is coming up, however I suspect that Vegas exists almost exclusively because this argument is not a valid one, proven wrong in practice often, to their great profit.....

    I also don't think you are suggesting the EVERY team in one conference is defacto superior to EVERY team in the other conference, based only on the conference they are in, are you?
     
  6. CalDog

    CalDog New Member

    I am simply suggesting that some Division basketball conferences are much better than others, even though they all follow the same rules and policies. And this point is perfectly true -- if you are not a basketball fan yourself, then ask one.

    Does this mean that every ACC team is always guaranteed to be better than every Southland team? No, of course not.

    But nobody claims that all regionally accredited schools are always better than all DETC accredited schools either. It would be impossible for anyone, even a "DETC hater", to say that, because sometimes the same school holds both accreditations.

    The concern with DETC is that its minimum standards are lower than the minimum standards for RA. It's true that some DETC schools may be comparable to RA schools (in fact, we know this is true, because sometimes DETC schools successfully apply for RA). But the worst DETC schools may not be.

    *****

    For comparison, the 12 ACC basketball teams are currently ranked at #5 to #139 in the country in the USA Today Sagarin rankings. The 10 Southland teams are currently ranked at #73 to #377; most of them (7 of 10) are ranked below #200, which is significantly lower than the worst ACC teams.

    So there is some overlap: the best Southland teams can compete with the weaker ACC teams. However, the worst Southland teams are well below the ACC standard. And so in general, the Southland Conference is perceived as inferior by college basketball fans, even though it folllows the same rules and regulations as the ACC.

    The point: maybe it doesn't matter if the same rules and regulations are followed. There is still a difference.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Feb 13, 2013
  7. me again

    me again Well-Known Member

    People are simply pointing out that DETC has an inferior utility in the United States. It's nothing personal. Unfortunately, there are people who frequently come on this board to start multiple threads that erroneously tout DETC utility as being equal with RA utility, which is simply not true. This very thread is another example. LOL
     
  8. Rich Douglas

    Rich Douglas Well-Known Member

    This isn't worth the bother for several reasons.

    First, Mr. Edwards offers nothing to the discussion. Why argue with someone seeking solely to argue?

    Second, as CalDog aptly notes, having comparable policies doesn't mean comparable results. Which leads to....

    Third, Mr. Edwards confuses inputs and processes (the stuff DETC has and the policies it holds) with outcomes. A Honda Civic and a BMW X3 are both legitimate cars. They are not, however, comparable cars. Which leads to....

    Fourth, DETC has violated its own policies on many occasions, which has been demonstrated publicly over the years. From accrediting schools outside its scope to accrediting schools in current violation of its standards of practice, DETC has repeatedly ignored this. Which leads to....

    Fifth, outcomes. Mr. Edwards may not like a "10 year old study," but there's been nothing offered to suggest the outcomes would be any different today. In fact, DETC's own surveys--even though confusingly and ineptly presented--continue to show the inferiority Mr. Edwards declaims.

    Sixth, the arguments, as "me to" points out, are usually around utility, not the quality of DETC's policies. Mr. Edwards doesn't offer anything on that, either. (But again, as noted above, DETC has in many cases violated its own policies, so just how useful are they?) It's not about the accreditation process or even the quality of the schools. Mr. Edwards offers a red herring that, upon inspection, fails even there.

    So, thank you Mr. Edwards, but no thanks. I'm sure I join many others who would look forward to any support you might generate for your assertions. Good luck with your research!
     
  9. Ed Edwards

    Ed Edwards Member

    YES! This is what I want to understand. Show me which standards are lower, side by side, because I couldn't find them. Pick the top two or three that are easy to see and lets go at'em!
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Feb 13, 2013
  10. Ed Edwards

    Ed Edwards Member



    Yes, I understand. You can't do it. Got it. TFMMP. :)
     
  11. Ed Edwards

    Ed Edwards Member

    I assume by using the term 'utility' you are referring to its economic definition, loosely if I remember along the lines of the ability of a product to satisfy the needs or wants of a consumer. You are in the wrong argument, this thread is meant to be a discussion to the quality of accreditation by analysis of stated policy. Utility of education is a paper argument based upon individual needs/wants. A Harvard degree in history may have the same utility as an online history degree if my wants are self enrichment and a structured learning environment.
     
  12. CalDog

    CalDog New Member

    DETC policy VI.D:

    Sounds good, right? How could RA agencies be better than that?

    Yet DETC has a reputation for accrediting schools with, um, questionable histories. RA agencies don't.

    The reality is that a standard like "integrity and ethical conduct" is subjective. Just because DETC has a policy in favor of "integrity", and RA has a policy in favor of "integrity", doesn't mean that the standards are identical.

    Same is true for concepts like "financial stability". Both DETC and RA say they support financial stability -- yet no one doubts that a school needs more financial resources to get RA. That's one reason why it's easier to get DETC accreditation -- but also a reason why DETC schools are more likely to go out of business.

    My local steakhouse has "Value Dinner" nights. And my local McDonald's has a "Value Menu". Clearly they both have policies that favor "Value". Yet I suspect that they interpret "Value" differently.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Feb 13, 2013
  13. Jonathan Whatley

    Jonathan Whatley Well-Known Member

    I like the DETC, but here's something.

    Let's look at the population of schools that received full accreditation to offer degrees over the past x years, either from DETC, from RA, or from other institutional accreditors.

    The DETC seems to have a relatively high rate of these both losing DETC accreditation, and falling out of the community of accredited schools entirely – not securing either another DOED/CHEA-recognized accreditation, or GAAP. So I'm excluding from this condition cases like WGU or UNISA. I'm thinking of the University of Atlanta, Yorktown University, Azaliah College, and Revans University/University of Action Learning/IMCA. Ah, and Perelandra College, though from what I know I'm fond of that one. Rich or CalDog might think of others offhand.

    Now, that schools lose accreditation is evidence that the DETC is awake and has real standards. But could a similar rate of gains, then losses of accreditation occur at a regional without raising questions?
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Feb 13, 2013
  14. rebel100

    rebel100 New Member

    Yawn...how often we gotta do this? Search feature broke?
     
  15. Ed Edwards

    Ed Edwards Member

    Every three days.
     
  16. Ed Edwards

    Ed Edwards Member

    The two points about schools going out of business by CalDog and Jonathan Whatley are good ones.
     
  17. Kizmet

    Kizmet Moderator

    Calling people "haters" is not nice, not accurate and decreases the credibility of your own question. It's clear you're just trying to pick a fight but that fight has already occurred and now most people are totally disinterested. If you want a DETC degree that's fine with me. If you apply for a job at the corporation where I work you won't even get an interview. Is that true everywhere? Of course not, but it's true in more places than not. If you want a degree for "personal enrichment" I'd suggest UNISA. It's very respected and a fraction of the cost.
     
  18. skidadl

    skidadl Member

    I'm not interested in an argument about the issue but I can tell you that a Fortune 7 (at the tine) company paid for my DETC degree.

    Since that time my boss has given me several promotions and raises because of my degree. BTW, I am self employed. ;)
     
  19. Rich Douglas

    Rich Douglas Well-Known Member

    Or sociological. Pierre Bourdieu discussed the different types of social capital we use. Universities issue two kinds: an education and a degree. The discussions around DETC accreditation are really about the second one--the degree and its power as a form of capital. (The student also issued capital in return for the education and degree. Things like tuition and fees, studying, participating in the school's culture, etc.)
     
  20. Rich Douglas

    Rich Douglas Well-Known Member

    How about DETC accrediting schools that operate beyond its own scope? Universities like Leicester and Deakin that are full campus schools who award the Ph.D, for example. Or how about schools that operate deceptively? At least two schools (still accredited by DETC) advertised unrecognized and bogus accreditation until the day they were awarded DETC accreditation. Highly deceptive advertising practices, yet ignored by DETC.

    I hope those are good points, too.
     

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