Berne University International Graduate School

Discussion in 'Accreditation Discussions (RA, DETC, state approva' started by Guest, Jun 27, 2002.

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  1. simon

    simon New Member

    There is a bottomline to this debate.

    Berne offers degrees in such specialization areas as Psychology, Social Work and a number of areas in education.

    Do these credentials enable one to practice in the majority of states in the U.S.? More specifically, do their degrees meet state and national licensure and certification requirements in these diverse disciplines? Will these credentials provide the recipient with the opportunity to apply and be accepted for state and federal civil service employment? Will national organizations accept the Berne's doctorate as meeting their respective codes of ethics requirements for referring to oneself as "doctor"? Etc, etc.

    To argue this subject any further without examining the viability and acceptability of their degrees is of little utility. If their accreditation is valid then their credentials will be generally accepted and honored as noted above. End of story.
     
  2. Guest

    Guest Guest

    Good points Simon. It would be helpful for those from the board in diverse parts of the state to check into some of these issues and Dennis Ruhl in Canada. What mechanisms if any are in place for Foreign degree recongition and utilization.

    I can say that in looking at a couple of web sites it appears Berne University would qualify for educator certifcation based on the fact that an alternative is the foreign credential evaluation. Berne seems like it could meet this. It offers a PhD in Social Work but my guess is that in most cases this would NOT qualify for licensure based on the fact the the term Social Worker is highly regulated and seems in the cases I am aware of to require graduation from a school accredited by the Social Work accrediting body (whose name escapes me) & I am not aware of provision for foregin degrees. One state's site I looked at in school counseling says that for foreign degrees a F. Credential Evaluation is acceptable to demonstrate equivalency. Berne U *could* therfore meet this but would not because there Psych emphasis does NOT appear to be structured to meet licensure requirements.

    All should keep in mind that the ability to achieve licensure is one thing (and appears in many cases possible for Berne U) but it is another aspect of utilization that has not been reported on which is also important. That is whether the degree perception would be good enough to secure employment even though licensed, etc.

    The Army would accept it based on listing & F. Credential Evaluation. My employer would because they require foreign degrees to have a recognized Foreign Credential Evaluation.

    You are correct Simon that as each state is different and some may or may not have provision for Foreign Credential Evaluation. One I know of requires that a Foreign Psych degree be submitted to its main university in their state university system. That outcome is by no means certain (assuming Berne were attempting to offer licensure qualifying exams).

    North
     
  3. BillDayson

    BillDayson New Member

    My point was only that you can't tell the good guys from the bad guys simply on the basis of the local approval.

    Sure, we know that Johns Hopkins is excellent. But we wouldn't know that on the basis of the state approval alone. We need some other corroboration, in this case RA from Middle States, lots of specialized accreditations and a dynamite scholarly reputation.

    If St. Kittsian accreditation isn't credible, then we need some other kind of evidence there too. Perhaps IUHS, Berne and Ross can produce it, perhaps they can't. Perhaps some of them can and others can't.

    Not necessarily. If the accreditation is unreliable, it might just mean that we need more evidence to make a determination.

    In fact, St. Kittsian accreditation might be fine. The problem is that it is an unknown accreditor with no history, experience or bona fides, that appeared out of nowhere and accredited a questionable school. Now some pretty strong claims are being made on its behalf, namely RA-equivalence.

    I'm just arguing for caution. Before we accept the equivalence claims on the basis of St. Kitts' accreditation alone, we should see some credible outside verification of what both Berne and St. Kitts are doing. Everything might be great, or it might be another WAUC, this time claiming to be "GAAP".
     
  4. Bruce

    Bruce Moderator

    I don't know why you would get that impression. The New England Association (which covers NH) has given its blessing to many DL programs, including some from Boston University and Western New England College just in the last few months.


    Bruce
     
  5. Ike

    Ike New Member

    I agree but it is important to note that no poster (including Dr. Bear, Rich and Kristin) has ever claimed to see any other evidence that shows that IUHS and Ross University are more credible than Berne. Dr. Bear is without question the most experienced person on DL issues that posts here. He has visited Berne's office in St. Kitts but as Dr. Wetch pointed out, we still don't have all the facts about Berne and St. Kitts accreditation.
    The accreditation of the three schools comes from the ministry of education of St. Kitts and I suspect that neither IUHS nor Ross can produce more evidence other than their accreditation, faculty profiles, and curricula. I am only trying to call a spade a spade. The three universities are either accredited or not. Just like Lewchuk and Andy Borchers would say, accreditation does not ensure quality, especially when it comes from a country with little experience in higher education.
    Accreditation/recognition process in St. Kitts may not be as rigourous as accreditation process in the U.S, U.K (Royal Charter), Canada, Australia, Jamaica, South Africa, etc, but accreditation is accreditation. Lack of it is lack of it. Despite the platitudinous statements that have been used by some posters to describe Berne, I am still convinced that Berne may after all not be what some people say it is. If it is what they say it is, the other two schools (IUHS and Ross) are ipso facto unaccredited institutions.

    Ike Okonkwo
    (Finishing his RA Ph.D. and has no intention of working for Berne)
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jul 18, 2002
  6. simon

    simon New Member

    Let me share some relevant data that may lead the participants of this discussion to consider some core issues relating to the relevancy of the degrees issued by Berne's rather than continue to argue interminably.

    In regard to doctoral degrees in Psychology, the American Psychological Association's Code of ethics requires that in order to refer to oneself as a psychologist it is mandatory that the degree be regionally accredited or emanate from a foreign school whose level of accreditation is equivalent to RA. The American Counseling Association's Code of ethics and standards holds a similar perspective in relation to the practice of counseling as does the National Association of Social Workers relating to possessors of Masters and doctoral degrees in Social Work.

    State boards of licensure in the disciplines of Psychology, Social Work and Counseling have been evolving much more stingent criteria for applicants. RA degrees or their foreign eqquivalence are conceived to be mandatory in order to attain licensure to practice. DETC does not fulfill this requirement.

    States differ in their perspective regarding degrees in education. However, many require an RA degree or equivalent in order to be eligible for state certification as a teacher or national certification. I am not certain but believe that a DETC degree may not meet this requirement in the majority of instances.

    In terms of the business degrees offered by Berne's, what is their statistics regarding the number of graduates SEEKING employment ( not those who are currently employed in academia, in private business or practice), who have found high higher level positions in academia or the business world?

    My point is self-evident. Unless Berne's or any comparable school can present substantial evidence as to the success of their graduates (and I do not mean anecdotal presentations of this one or that one, but significant numbers) meeting the criteria as enumerated above leading to their studentsr achieving success in these area, the relevance and applicability of their accreditation is highly questionable.

    if you guys wish to continue to debate this matter as an exercise in intellectual discourse by all means continue to do so. Some of the content of these postings are interesting and engaging. However, for the average poster who is reading these postings the bottomline will be the meaning and relevance of these debates in relationship to their professional and personal lives.

    Iit would appear that now is the time to redirect the focus to a more objecive and realistic position that defines the actual level of value and merit that degrees from this school provides its graduates. In turn, this may cast light on this heated debate and lead us to information that we can review and comment on collectively.

    Simon
     
  7. Ike

    Ike New Member

    Simon:

    Good point. I will also add that we need to distinguish between accreditation and utility. We are talking about accreditation not utility of Berne's degree.
     
  8. simon

    simon New Member

     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jul 18, 2002
  9. Dennis Ruhl

    Dennis Ruhl member

    This stuff is not easy to find. I know nothing about the regulation of psychologists so the job is tougher.

    College of Alberta Psychologists

    The candidate must have obtained a graduate degree from:

    - government approved or authorized degree-granting institution of higher education in Canada or

    - regionally accredited in US (paraphrased) or

    - university in another country that has been recognized or authorized by an appropriate authority of that jurisdiction.

    With thesis - 60 credits psych courses including 30 grad level.

    Without thesis - 72 credits psych courses including 36 grad level.

    There are also specific course requirements.

    A masters degree from Berne appears to be adequate to practice psychology in Alberta if it includes the specific course requirement. If I was considering grad school at a foreign school, I might want something in writing.

    Note that a doctorate is not required, just a graduate degree in psychology.

    I hope this helps.
     
  10. simon

    simon New Member


    Response: Thanks for your feedback Dennis.

    It is obvious from this set of criteria that the issue of " a university in another country that has been recognized or authorized by an appropriate authority of that jurisdiction", needs to be clarified.

    If possible please contact the governmental office in Alberta that is responsible for licensure and inquire as to whether the accreditation system which exists in St. kitt and which in turn oversees berne U., meets their criteria as noted above. I am quite certain that they will provide you with the information we need to gain a better understanding how a provence in Canada perceives St. kitts accreditation process.
     
  11. BillDayson

    BillDayson New Member

    Is there some reason why professional organizations and state licensing boards specify RA-equivalence? Why do you suppose that they are doing that?

    The utility of a degree, at least ideally, is intended to be a function of whatever valuable quality that is associated with credible accreditation.

    Lets assume that the professional organizations and state licensing boards are right, that regional accreditation has meaning and value.

    Now consider that we live in a world that contains hundreds of different forms of accreditation. One (or more) for each country, essentially.

    If we simply assume, a-priori, that all foreign accreditations are RA-equivalent, then aren't we defeating our purpose?

    If the problem of recognizing possible loopholes and abuses is of no interest, then why have accreditation requirements at all?

    I'm interested in utility only tangentially, to the extent that utility is a function of the more fundamental values such as academic credibility that accreditation is supposed to address.

    Concerning "average Joe", if he is contemplating earning a doctorate and becoming a professional, then he isn't "average", is he? I would hope that his interest would extend beyond merely meeting formal requirements to why those requirements exist in the first place, and to how one can determine if they have in fact been met.

    Concerning the resolution of the issues raised by this thread, I would hope that eventually professional organizations, licensing boards and credential evaluators adopt a more critical and discerning attitude towards foreign approvals.

    Most foreign nations have excellent standards and the oversight mechanisms to enforce them. But whatever we think of Berne and St. Kitts, I think that all of us, if we are honest, will have to admit that there is no reason to believe that about every nation without exception. That means that there are going to be places out there that are just as flaky as Hawaii was before Mr. Brunton appeared on the scene.

    To me, what makes Berne and St. Kitts interesting is that they are a test case. They are a warning that the question of international accreditation-equivalence still needs a *lot* of work. And that work has to be done soon.

    We have all seen the iffy American schools moving across the map like nomads. California, Louisiana, Hawaii, South Dakota, Wyoming... Well, when they discover that they can move off-shore to some uncritical foreign jurisdiction and immediately become **RA-equivalent**, what do you think they will do? We will be seeing a wave of that in the next ten years, and this thread is the warning.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jul 18, 2002
  12. simon

    simon New Member

     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jul 18, 2002
  13. BillDayson

    BillDayson New Member

    I don't understand you.

    I'm not disagreeing with you necessarily, just saying that I don't have a clue what you are talking about.

    I have set out the issues as I see them. In a perfect world (in which everyone agreed that the problem exists), the next step would be to look for ways to more credibly evaluate academic institutions and accreditation across borders.

    Perhaps it's true that we should be addressing different issues or looking at this thing from an entirely different angle. If so, I for one am going to need some educating about what your suggestions are.
     
  14. simon

    simon New Member

     
  15. simon

    simon New Member

    A colleague informed me of a discussion with a senior administrator at Berne U. in new hampshire.

    The issue revolved around licensure eligibility for psychologists, Social Workers and Teachers. Berne contends that individuals with masters and doctorates from their school have no difficulty finding employment in these professions.

    When my colleague inquired as to the numbers of graduates from Berne's who obtained licensure in these disciplines in the U.S., the response was that it was the students responsiblity to determine if they are eligible for licensure in their respective state.

    When pressed for a definitive statement regarding the approximate number of students who received licensure or eligibility for licensure in the U.S., the response was that this information was not available.

    This feeback is very revealing regarding the questionable level of utility, recognition and acceptability of the accreditation process of this school for purposes of licensure as noted above.

    When one requests information from Walden, Capella or the Union Institute, they too do not guarantee licensure in these fields . HOWEVER, they will provide an approximation of the numer of graduates who received licenses and are eligible to practice in various states in the fileds noted above. They will also indicate which states are the most difficult in terms of acquiring licensure..
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jul 19, 2002
  16. hfc

    hfc New Member

    An interesting thing is that if you go to the Berne Open University site and click on the "online brochure", you will get a catalog that lists ONLY master's degrees - no doctorates. Furthermore, the curriculum listed in the catalog, in several cases, is different from that offered by Berne International University.

    I'm not quite sure what to make of this, but obviously something is afoot.

    Howard
     
  17. Guest

    Guest Guest

    Well, here is what the explanation is. Berne Open University is the division that has the on-line non residential Masters degrees that are available. This does NOT make particular sense to me. The site itself is not well done because it appears to focus on the whole Berne University program and continually refers to it. There is an on line brochure at http://www.berneopen.org which backs up the fact that Berne Open U is for the on line no residency Masters as that is all it focusses on.


    Does it make sense to me.........No.

    North
     
  18. hfc

    hfc New Member

    North,

    Thanks for the explanation.

    I'm not surprised you are confused because except for that "online brochure" the rest of the site is almost exactly, word for word, the same as the Berne International site - except the graphics are different. I didn't even notice the fact that the catalog was promoting a non-residential program, because the catalog starts out with a discussion of their facilities for the residential experiences.

    Howard
     
  19. Guest

    Guest Guest

    It leaves one asking why??? On top of that Berne Open U has its own NJ office in addition to the two usual ones (St. Kitts & NH). I suspect there is some practical reason for it that we are not privy to (somewhat like the strange disappearance of the founder who gets no mention anymore..........expunged form their history).

    ?????????

    North
     
  20. drwetsch

    drwetsch New Member

    All good points although a few of them do not have a lot to do as per the quality of the instruction (e.g. Loan Approval). Still, I would like to see the assessment of the evaluation process. It is one thing to have a process it is another to actually enforce it.

    John
     

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