Berne University International Graduate School

There is a prevailing notion amongst a number of posters that individuals who acquire DL RA doctorates will experience difficulty acquiring positions in academia.

It appears that many individuals who obtain this credential are employed in some capacity within academia and need the doctorate to maintain their position and to acquire tenure, or to enhance their credibility.

Although anecdotal, I am familiar with several individuals who have been teaching at a major university sytem in New York who have acquired doctorates in education from Capella U. The attainment of this degree has enabled them to meet the criteria for tenured teaching positions.

It is important to consider that significant numbers of indviduals with doctorates from well regarded traditional universities are experiencing extreme competition in their search for teaching positions within academia. Many are not successful in this search and have been forced to rethink their career path and move in new directions.

I believe that no generalizations can be made regarding the teaching opportunities available to graduates of DL doctoral programs at this juncture. With larger numbers of graduates emerging from these programs, within the next five to ten years we may be in a better position to understand the degree of efficacy of these credentials in assisting or detracting from employment within the context of academia.

 

I am writing to clarify how the State of Oregon treats Berne University of St. Kitts. Oregon law does not allow ODA to conduct a direct evaluation of a foreign college for purposes of deciding whether its degrees are valid for use here. Our law requires that we determine whether the approval process in the home nation in which a college is based is "equivalent" to U.S. accreditation. Equivalent is defined to mean that a genuine evaluative process with tangible standards of quality similar to U.S. standards be used and that evidence of such a process be available upon request. The problem with Berne and St. Kitts is that neither was able to show that Berne had actually gone through such a process. It has a business license and a letter of approval from the government, but when we wrote (twice) to both the school and the government of St. Kitts requesting copies of the actual application and evaluation for Berne, we received no replies. Since no U.S. accreditor or government agency has evaluated Berne's academic quality (the feds only looked at its financial capacity), we have no evidence that would allow it to meet the legal standard. Thus its degrees are invalid in Oregon, where the use of such a degree as a credential is an illegal act.

 

Are we not sure that in St. Kitts they asked who is this Alan Oregon and where is the State of Contreras? Never heard of them. Why are they poking their noses into our business?

 

I believe in this approach and it is interesting that the credential evaluator just went on the assurance of the St. Kitts government that their accreditation process was "rigorous." I am more interested in seeing the proof to the process than take their word for it. So far no one seems able to produce it.

John

 

I've been one of the more (most?) vocal critics of the ODA's list. My main criticism has been in the list itself. I find it ham-handed to put some schools on it while omitting or neglecting others. Also, I feel if you are going to maintain a complete list, then do it, and make a decision about schools like Berne and MIGS before you (sort of) list them.

Because I've also been a critic of many (again, most?) of the schools you list, I am in favor of the spirit of the attempt. Yes, I feel it is unconstitutional, but not on free speech grounds. I suspect it is beyond Oregon's reach to regulate out-of-state schools and the degrees they award, even when used in Oregon. I don't see how you will be able to prevent someone from using a legally issued degree, especially in an unregulated/unlicensed profession. But I could very much be mistaken.

Get rid of the list. Its incompleteness and inconsistency is amateurish. Your criteria for what is and is not acceptable should suffice, as long as it holds up. I'm all for it, if it is legal and successful.

I sure wish you would have gotten a clear answer regarding MIGS. But perhaps you did.

Thanks for chiming in, Alan. Your positions are much more persuasive when delivered in first person.

 

I believe the evaluator noted that they had discussed the process, reviewed the degree requirements and had independent verfication of the quality of the dissertation by a British academic. As well as normal assurances that the school was recognized.

The Accreditation process and requirements are listed on the St. Kitts & Nevis government web site.

In the Berne recognition packet, is a statement that the US Department of Education made a week long visit to St. Kitts during 2001 Residency where they received high commendation. What was evaluated I do not know. Apparently the same visit is going on during this residency.

Here is my point to play devil's advocate. Suppose Berne decides the St. Kitt's accreditation meets its needs in terms of affordability, etc. At what point do we finally acknowledge they may put out a recognized product, maybe even a quality product. They are obviously not a mill just pumping out graduates as the small sample in terms of Foreign Credential Evaluators demonstrate. Each time the bar was set, Berne met it and then we raised it. At first they are not GAAP, then they got listed, then no F. Credential Evaluation, then they got that. Then that was not enough. Someone on this forum made the comment that the British University academic (and the other Foreign Academic) the foreign credential evaluator used must have been in the pay of Berne U. That sort of mentality is ridiculous (It is the "Yes, But" game).

So, if Berne decided to never pursue RA when would we be able to acknowledge they met some sort of acceptable criteria or would we continue to attempt to poke holes in it (Yes, But).

Here is what they have:

1) Accredited by St. Kitts (criteria listed on Government web site)

2) UNESCO Membership

3) International Association of Universities member

4) International Handbook of Universities listing. 7,300 institutions listed worldwide. To my knowledge known mills are not listed (eg some said SGI was one and it is not listed).

5) World Education Database (WHED) listing.

6) US Federal Loans approval (Yes, I am aware of the process involved)

7) VA Approval (Also aware of process).

8) Recognition by the Canadian Ministry of Colleges and Universities to obtain loans (a number of Provincial approvals).

9) More than one Foreign Credential Evaluator recognizes PhD equivalency with RA.

So, when is enough enough???

North

 

Voice of reason.

Here, here, Capt!

I totally agree with you.

Michael

I think Elvis lives, I saw him at the 7-11.

 

The bottom line for any doctoral program is the scholarship thats produced. Berne purports to offer multiple doctoral programs, but has anyone ever seen any research published by Berne scholars? Berne needs to establish some kind of profile in the scholarly world.

They also need to submit to credible outside review. Regional accreditation is peer review, and the regional accreditors consist of hundreds of other universities. The accreditors in turn are reviewed by the Department of Education and CHEA. Universities usually also have specialized accreditations, which means review by relevant professional organizations. And research universities compete for research support from organizations like the National Science Foundation, which review grant applications carefully.

The point is that there is a system of checks and balances. While it's conceivable that one element of the process may be incompetent, sloppy or corrupt, there are enough eyes open to keep the ultimate result credible.

If Berne and St. Kitts aren't kidding themselves or cynically jerking us around, they could invite in a credible and competent party from outside to verify what they are doing. An American regional accreditor, specialized professional accreditors, the British QAA or whoever.

As things stand, you have a university that is operating with questionable legality in its home state, evading domestic accreditation standards that it almost certainly couldn't meet, and claiming accreditation from an island that didn't even have any universities until the off-shore schools started turning up.

None of this *proves* that Berne isn't excellent or that St. Kitts' standards aren't exemplary. But it *does* illustrate the need for some kind of external corroboration of what's happening.

That was me, North. Joel Slocum, the evaluator, said this:

Note the words, "this is standard practice for them." Clearly these external readers were chosen by Berne, not by Mr. Slocum.

We all know that many unrecognized universities, some of them awfully bad, have faculty who also hold positions at better known schools. Any one of these people could be termed an "external" reader. It's unclear what this adds if they are speaking only for themselves and not for their university.

I asked you before North: Are you willing to extend this same courtesy to state-approved schools? Many of them have faculty that also teach at RA schools. If one of those faculty serves on a student's dissertation committee, does that make the state-approved degree RA-equivalent? RJT has been arguing that point for weeks regarding Kennedy-Western.

When Berne undergoes a credible quality-assurance process.

It isn't enough for them to evade all the established QA mechanisms, produce some obscure and untested ones of their own, and then insist "yes, but" we are equivalent.

Accreditation is a quality assurance process, pure and simple. It isn't a question of whether a state is soverign or whether it is a UN member. It isn't a matter of a school being listed in a book. Accreditation can only succeed to the extent that it is credible.

If Berne wants the acceptance of the academic and professional communities, perhaps they should stop evading those communities and submit to their scrutiny.

 

That perfectly sums up how I feel about Berne and other schools that shop around for accreditation loopholes.


Bruce

 

I completely disagree.

I believe that it is impossible to maintain a complete list of phony schools. Some are going to be be created and then close down before they can even be noticed, let alone investigated. By their very nature they are going to frequently have confusing names, changing names and try to hide their origins. It is impossible to maintain a complete list of phoney schools.

On the other hand an incomplete list is better than no list at all. Take RJT for example, there's no doubt in my mind that if KWU wasn't explicitly on the list he would be denying that KWU meets the criteria of a phoney school as specified by the ODA, as would 99.99% of all degree mill apologists.

 

BillDayson,

Your perspective regarding this issue, as usual, is right on target and very persuasive.

An important factor to keep in mind in any discussion of RA versus unaccredited schools is that certain posters rigorously hold the position that regional accreditation and its protocols are antithetical to their professional and personal interests, needs and goals.

The point being that due to this disparate perception, any cogent presentation of facts and convincing ideas in support of the RA process will not modify the belief systems or mindset of these proponents of unaccredited or quasi-accredited educational institutions. There isn't any negative connotation associated with this observation but that this position exists in spite of the best efforts to substantively establish the facts as they relate to this subject.

Simon

 

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Simon

By your qualifying as "some" posters and "these" proponents you show that my reminder is not likely necessary. But I encourage you and others as well who post good reasoning for accreditation to continue these argumentations. For some of us who view these on going debates finally do allow truth to sink in despite our "belief systems" and "mind sets." We then have our opinions modified and redirect our paths. These are changes of significant and major proportions at times. I am one who did.

 

The big problem is that everyone is trying to apply an American model to the rest of the world. For much of the world accreditation and licensing are the same thing.

To make a conclusion as to quality of education based on the non-reply of a (sort of) sovereign nation to questions posed by a civil servant in some backwater state is so so so so American. There I said it. I bet you guys wonder why you have so few friends in the world.

Things may be changing but I would guess that most of the largest universities in Canada are not specically accredited. A reply as to whether they are accredited may bring the response that they are the accrediting authority.

In Alberta until recently, acceptance of credit by the University of Alberta was the only accreditation. There is, however, now a board to accredit private colleges.

I also have to question the targeting of specific schools, who are often the best of the rest. Oregon's very incomplete list is most notable in its inclusion of schools that would be considered by many to be almost good enough and its exclusion of schools that are frauds.

Oregon is running a PR exercise. Unless they are willing to do a 100 % review of world universities and keep current with degree mills, I suggest that they have accomplished little.

Not a lawyer but what about grandfathering of degrees? It was legal for X years, why is it now illegal. Same degree.

 

Sometimes life is not fair. One of the dangers of an unaccredited degree is that at some point in time an institution may bestow their degrees based on a standard that is fully equivalent to RA then they can go bad and start bestowing grossly substandard degrees or they could go out of business. The point being that it is a danger of unaccredited degrees in general that the utility of the degree is unpredictable. It may be unfair to certain individuals at times but sometimes, life is not fair.

 

The issue here is whether Berne degrees should be recognized *in the United States* as being RA-equivalent. That necessarily involves the application of American models. Specifically, the definition of 'accreditation' as meaning academic quality assurance.

If 'accreditation' in another country means something else, if it doesn't imply an equivalent standard, then it isn't RA equivalent.

Obviously, if Berne graduates only used their degrees in the Federation of St. Kitts and Nevis, then it wouldn't be an issue of direct interest to outsiders.

The question is what is required for a university to obtain a license. The license in itself means little, the standards that the license represents mean a lot. Those standards can be met in a variety of ways, but they do have to be met, and met in such a way that outsiders can have confidence in that fact.

This isn't just an American issue, you know. Berne degrees could just as easily turn up in your country. Are you prepared to declare Berne, and every university approved by any foreign government anywhere, to be the academic equivalent of Canadian universities?

 

New Hampshire is in America. Berne is trying to apply St. Kitts and Nevis standards (as if they actually exist) to the U.S. And, by golly, my jingoistic, America First, flag-waving, Constitution-ignoring, Yankee self isn't going to stand for it!!!

Seriously, Berne isn't a foreign school. Let 'em rent their accreditation from an existing foreign school like everyone else.

 

Has it is been verified and established that Berne's main office/campus is in New Hampshire? I have been assuming that the school is a Caribbean university with a branch office in New Hampshire.

 

Ike: Has it is been verified and established that Berne's main office/campus is in New Hampshire? I have been assuming that the school is a Caribbean university with a branch office in New Hampshire.

John: When I visited the umcampus a few years ago in New Hampshire, it was their one and only facility: what appeared to be two rooms upstairs in a shopping mall building. They were renting space from a college in St. Kitts for their summer one-month residential session.

And remember the recent information that they are willing to waive the residential requirement for people who say they cannot easily go to St. Kitts.

 

St. Kitts and Nevis accreditation website http://www.stkittsnevis.net/accreditation.html

They appear to go through the process. I guess they are just a bunch of illiterate incompetent third world peasants. I just don't get it.