Berne University International Graduate School

Discussion in 'Accreditation Discussions (RA, DETC, state approva' started by Guest, Jun 27, 2002.

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  1. Bill Huffman

    Bill Huffman Well-Known Member

    Are you going to Berne, Timmy?
     
  2. Rich Douglas

    Rich Douglas Well-Known Member

    I assume the term "potentially" is purposeful. What changes in Berne do you anticipate in order for them to become, as you put it, good?

    (NB: I'm not taking the stance that Berne isn't already good. But Timmy seems to have done so, making me curious about future changes to improve Berne.)

    Berne does not seem to have the authority to operate in its home state of New Hampshire. They share that characteristic with MIGS, who was not legally entitled to operate in either Florida or Texas.

    Berne stakes its claim to acceptability in part through its listing in the IHU. They share that characteristic with MIGS.

    MIGS and Berne seem to be comparable in size and scope. That is, big website, small staff, scattered faculty.

    MIGS seemed to have the backing of the CEU--and there is no debate over the CEU's legitimacy and recognition. Now it turns out that MIGS didn't have the authority to conduct programs that would result in CEU-issued degrees, nor did the CEU have the authority to award degrees via MIGS. This is different from Berne, which doesn't have--or appear to have--a relationship with a recognized, degree-granting school. Rather, they have the permission of a tiny, Caribbean island lacking an educational system of its own, and is listed in one of several guides that are sometimes used to determine the status of a foreign university. This might be enough to make Berne degrees useful. It might not.

    Is MIGS bankrupt? When and where did they file?

    If MIGS is really out of business for good, has there been a line drawn between what was written here and their demise? You know, cause-and-effect? That would be something, wouldn't it?

    A more likely cause is the fact that MIGS claimed to operate in two states, yet had neither's authority/approval to do so. One state rejected their application while the other fined them. It seems more likely the writers of those two actions had a greater effect on MIGS' demise.

    If a holder of a Berne degree gets it evaluated by a credential evaluation agency whose evaluation is held with regard by the academic community, and if that person is able to use his/her Berne degree to the same extent as someone with a degree issued by an accredited school, then that would be evidence in Berne's favor. And if another person was unable to do it, then that would go against Berne's degrees' utility. But one or two cases that go either way almost certainly wouldn't be enough to state the case authoritatively. But the institutional matters (lack of accreditation, no state license, Caribbean location, etc.) would still be there, and would be difficult to ignore or explain.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jun 28, 2002
  3. Guest

    Guest Guest

    Bill,

    To quote Richard Nixon *Let me make one thing perfectly clear*, I am NOT promoting Berne as RA equivalent. I am stating some simple facts.

    Berne:

    i) Meets GAAP as defined (listing in appropriate handbook, recognition from Ministry of Education) - FACT

    ii) Has residencies at a rented campus not unlike Capella & Walden - FACT

    iii) Has a NACES recognized Credential Evaluator giving it equivalency to RA PhD. - FACT

    iv) Due to NACES member positive evaluation this degree will have some utility for some people - FACT

    These are facts not my recommendations. I am not enrolled and would not recommend them above other options such as RA, National Accreditation, UNISA, UNIZUL, etc BUT the NACES thing means this degree may have utility for some people. The one thing I do not know is whether a NACES evaluated MBA would receive better acceptance than a DETC one(??), it is an interesting question .

    North :)
     
  4. drwetsch

    drwetsch New Member

    Last edited by a moderator: Jun 29, 2002
  5. drwetsch

    drwetsch New Member

    With the NACES designation is it ascertained for certain that it is the Berne of St. Kitts and not the one in Switzerland?

    John
     
  6. Timmy Ade

    Timmy Ade New Member

    Bill Hoffman- "Are you going to Berne, Timmy?

    Timmy- If they will accept my MIGS TRANSCRIPTS.
    :)
     
  7. Rich Douglas

    Rich Douglas Well-Known Member

    Heh, heh, heh. Good one, Timmy. ;)
     
  8. Guest

    Guest Guest

    Hey John,

    No it is Berne (St. Kitts). They evaluated the Ph.D. as equivalent.

    I certainly do not believe the utility will be equivalent to an RA Ph.D. (even a Capella or Argosy). I also think that other foreign insitutions with more history and within jurisdictions who have longer history *accrediting* schools are wiser options. Berne is also not inexpensive. However, for those who choose the Berne route the degree may have utility BUT I would check carefully first (ie does the organization you want to use the degree in determine utility by NACES member evaluation).

    North
     
  9. irat

    irat New Member

    buyer be ware

    I tend to agree with the north (does that make me east or west).
    If the Berne degree is just being earned to prove you can, for your own interetst that is fine.
    If you plan to use the degree vocationally, then check with the organizations that you would use it with first.
    When I was in rehabilitation we often had people changing career do shadow interview. Pick the organizations with the jobs one was considering. Then interview people in the organization about what kind of employees the company looked for, temperment, training, physical characteristics. I was always surprised that a couple years later when the client/consumer went back, they were remembered. Apparently very few people do that kind of homework before initiating training.
    In the shadow interview ask the question, Where can I get the training your organization seeks? and ask, Can I get it from an institution like Berne?
    All the best!
     
  10. Guest

    Guest Guest

    Here are a couple of Professors with Berne doctorates since someone asked.

    http://faculty.uvi.edu/rhernan/resume.htm

    http://www.mercy.edu/faculty/hassad/index.htm

    http://www.business.gardner-webb.edu/department/business/Faculty.html

    I left out Community Colleges and adjuncts.

    I do NOT post this to suggest that a Berne Ph.D. will get you a job as a professor. Merely a couple of people with it. Again, I think anyone considering Berne will need to see if wherever they intend to use it will accept it or whether the NACES member evaluation will be accepted.

    I am aware of issues with Berne's past but I think we need to focus on whatever potential utility there is rather than framing the situation in hyperbole (negative). They have GAAP status, and the recognized evaluation. This negative framing of Berne can be done with other schools, eg:

    Capella University: A school which does not have its own campus (operate out of office space) and has to rent-a-campus for the summer. It has no library for research. Students spend maybe 4 or 5 weeks total in residence while the rest of the work is done through correspondence courses. Add the month or so in residence at a rented campus and at regional sites, your correspondence courses and dissertation and walla you are a PhD.

    Would this be a fair characterization of Capella. While the facts may be correct it does not really convey the truth of Capella which is a well respected Regionally accredited distance learning institution.

    North
     
  11. Rich Douglas

    Rich Douglas Well-Known Member

    Ah, there is the rub. And the difference. And what really, really, matters.

    Berne may very well turn out to be a legitimate opportunity for people. But the evidence for that doesn't seem all that weighty. (The IHU listing and the anecdotal evidence of acceptance of Berne degrees.) Unfortunately, we've found that listing in the IHU isn't all that persuasive. But foreign credential evaluation is. If there was more of it, that would help.) And the fact that Berne really operates from New Hampshire without that state's approval--and to their consternation--is simply not good. Why isn't Berne working with New Hampshire? Why isn't it pursuing regional accreditation? An RA degree is an RA degree. But a Berne degree may or may not be equivalent. Again, that is the rub.
     
  12. irat

    irat New Member

    got to agree with Rich

    I have to agree with Rich.
    If the school is a business, there are logical business moves.
    If the school is based on academics, there are logical moves for academic credentialing.
    Both would seem to have legal operations from some states in the USA. Both would seem to involve some sort of real accreditation.
    All the best!
     
  13. Guest

    Guest Guest

    I agree with you Rich that more examples of acceptance would be helpful. People teaching at Community Colleges or as adjuncts is not proof based on the nature of these institutions.

    As for RA I don't know. The accreditation process for Berne is without a doubt much cheaper in St. Kitts (also less useful). I suspect that Berne could manage RA successfully based on the fact that Capella, Walden & Argosy are all RA. The methodology used is not that much different and the last time I looked at a Berne catalogue they had all qualified faculty with *accredited* degrees (maybe 1 Berne graduate among them). They would need to spend the money and overcome the negative publicity but I think that on the surface they are not that much different from some of the other DL programs out there not tied to traditional institutions.

    To be frank there are traditonal academics (young ones) who consider all DL doctorates to be milled or substandard. I have mentioned before that two Ph.D.'s I know (both Gen Xers) one a Texas A&M grad and the other Cronell who were utterly appalled at the idea of a DL doctorate even from Regionally accredited schools. They guy looked ill at the thought and the woman said "oh you basically buy the degree" (and the both knew the schools mentioned were RA).

    North
     
  14. tcnixon

    tcnixon Active Member


    Can anyone point to a tenured or tenure-track professor that earned their Berne Ph.D. prior to getting their position and was hired because of that Ph.D.?

    And, to clarify, it must be someone that can actually be pointed out. No ghosts, phantoms, or other apparitions allowed. :eek:



    Tom Nixon
     
  15. Guest

    Guest Guest

    Hey Tom,

    I put your challenge on distancedegree.net and addressed it to Survey2002 and any other incarnations. They have been loud and somewhat rude in defense of Berne. I am in agreement with you that full time tenured faculty would be a vocal statement of credibility for the program that goes beyond the utility for some in non academic career use.

    Just to be fair, are you aware of many full time tenured faculty positions occupied by Capella, and Walden graduates who got their job because of their Capella/Walden PhD and not hired prior to getting it? (no adjunct or Community College, etc).

    North
     
  16. Bruce

    Bruce Moderator

    That's because he/she/they in all likelihood work for Berne. That isn't just my opinion or gut instinct, but I'll leave it at that for now.

    North...to be honest, I'm a bit surprised at your vigorous defense of Berne. They exhibit several qualities of a degree mill, but you seem to either not notice or not care. What's the story?


    Bruce
     
  17. Guest

    Guest Guest

    First, your comment about Survey 2002 working for Berne. Interesting, it sounds as if you know something. Survey2002 was not all that effective in terms of sounding very juvenile and not very academic.

    Second, as for my defense of Berne it is only related to playing devil's advocate so to speak. Once I verified that indeed a recognized Foreign Credential Evaluator had given them equivalency I had to acknowledge that Berne degrees may have utility to some. To do less would be like Steve runnning around calling Touro or NCU a *mill*.

    As I have said before I would not recommend Berne over RA or other Foreign GAAP options such as UNISA. I might recommend them over California Coast University or other State Approved schools simply because at least with Berne there is some chance of having the degree accepted based on the evaluation. Where I work for example, the credential evaluation would make Berne acceptable but they would never....ever.......accept a state approved school.

    North
     
  18. Howard

    Howard New Member




    North,
    I think you over simplify the Capella PhD (but then I would). YOu state "your correspondence courses" and very few courses are done via the correspondence route. Most, and the number is increasing every day, are done via on-line teaching. In fact, all of the psychology courses are done on line. Maybe you should take one course at Capella.........
     
  19. drwetsch

    drwetsch New Member

    I may have missed something in all of these posts. Which credentialing service in the NACES group did the evaluation of the Berne degree?

    John
     
  20. Guest

    Guest Guest

    ECI (I believe it is the acronym). It is a NACES member. Not that I would march up to Harvard trying to get a job if I were a Berne grad but.....

    North
     

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