Ashworth College

Discussion in 'General Distance Learning Discussions' started by Bob Fiske, May 26, 2005.

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  1. Casey

    Casey New Member

    Hi Dave:

    I have no intention of making personal attacks. Again, I ask simply because I am curious to know if you have actually experienced RA and/or NA education. I am also curious to see if you have had any personal NA degree utility problems.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: May 30, 2005
  2. Horatio

    Horatio New Member

    Dave, maybe you should practice what you preach? You tried to "poison the well" on the first page of this debate when you said to me:

    "You are coming acrossed like you have an agenda or bias."

    -Dave Hayden

    If you do not want things not to turn personal I suggest you adhere to that standard yourself Dave.
     
  3. Casey

    Casey New Member

    NA vs RA

    The data below comes directly from the US DOE database.
    See http://www.ope.ed.gov/accreditation/

    There are 2644 institutions accredited by these 11 National Agencies:
    1) Accrediting Bureau of Health Education Schools
    2) Accrediting Commission of Career Schools and Colleges of Technology
    3) Accrediting Council for Continuing Education and Training
    4) Accrediting Council for Independent Colleges and Schools
    5) American Academy for Liberal Education
    6) Association for Biblical Higher Education
    7) Association of Advanced Rabbinical and Talmudic Schools
    8) Association of Theological Schools in the United States and Canada
    9) Commission on Accrediting, Council on Occupational Education,
    10) Distance Education and Training Council, Accrediting Commission
    11) Transnational Association of Christian Colleges and Schools

    There are 3207 institutions accredited by these 8 Regional Agencies:
    1) Middle States Association of Colleges and Schools - Commission on Higher Education
    2) New England Association of Schools and Colleges - Higher Education
    3) New England Association of Schools and Colleges - Technical and Career Institutions
    4) North Central Association of Colleges and Schools - Higher Learning Commission
    5) Northwest Commission on Colleges and Universities
    6) Southern Association of Colleges and Schools - Commission on Colleges
    7) Western Association of Schools and Colleges - Community and Junior Colleges
    8) Western Association of Schools and Colleges - Senior Colleges and Universities
     
    Last edited by a moderator: May 30, 2005
  4. Tom Horton

    Tom Horton New Member

    To Horatio and Busho4

    Dear Horatio and Busho4,

    Don't you get it by now? Dave Hayden is "RA or No Way". He's never been part of higher education. Never worked for a University, never been part of a DETC or RA site visit review committee. He doesn't have an Ed.D. or any qualification whatsoever to review anything remotely related to higher education. He is simply "RA or No Way" and cannot substantiate anything he writes or thinks. Don't even bother argueing with him, he's not even qualified to answer the phone at a University much less his opinion is worth anything with regards to Higher Education, he can only parrot whatever he read on the internet by other people who have never been part of Higher Education themselves. Dave Hayden by professional works in Technical Support.
     
  5. CoachTurner

    CoachTurner Member

    YES!

    Don't you get it? It's not about NA or RA or noA -- it's about level of training.

    I suppose that if someone wanted to transfer in equal amounts of credit from an RA to an NA and that coursework was equal level, and applicable to the program, then it might work.

    Even so, the school itself is free to say "NO" we won't transfer you written English class from RA XYZ, we expect you to take our written English class. They are allowed to do that.

    In the OP we're not talking about NA MBAs or PhDs or even BAs -- we're talking about a DETC technical/voactional associate degree. It's pretty close to the lowest animal on the academic ladder.

    It's a VoTech program -- they market it as such. It's not a "college transfer program" such as they have at XYZ Community College.

    Even in a typical CC -- credit from a VoTech AAS will not[/I] transfer to the same CCs academic/transfer AA/AS program let alone the nearby state university.

    So some on this board have a stick up their behind about whether DETC is equal to RA. I don't know whether they are or not. I do know that they are each recognized at the same level by US DoE (maybe some should argue to change that).

    I know that there are some here that argue RA is better than DETC because the former will transfer to RA schools -- but it will not universally transfer to RA schools. Your premise is wrong.

    Some argue that RA is better because you can use it to enter an RA masters -- not an AAS you can't, only an RA bachelor. Therefor, your premise is wrong.

    Some argue that RA is better because it is a higher standard. I don't know that I universally buy that either. Show me the proof. Therefor, the conclusion is not supported.

    Ashworth suggests that one contact the school he wants to transfer credit to, and that makes them substandard?

    Let's not lie to Suzy and John out there. RA is not any better than DETC when it comes to VoTech programs anymore than B&M is better than DL. It's a very entry level credential for entry into fields that generally require no credential at all.

    One difference is that the typical RA program will put you in debt while the typical Ashworth/Ed Direct program is "pay as you go" at this level.

    Would you rather hit the job market (as a young friend of mine just did) with a BA in Music Performance and no job experience -- or an entry job experience with an AAS in WhoKnowsWhat from Ashworth? She'd have found a job in this tourist town with an AAS from Ashworth. If she wasn't interested in Grad School, what would be the real financial value of her liberal arts BA?

    She'd have better grad school choices if her program had been NA (Nat'l Assoc. Schools of Music) instead of RA (Southern Assoc.) -- but, nobody explained that to her back when she enrolled. Darn public university degree mills! {note sarcasm}

    Why would we want to perpetuate the myth that an RA liberal arts undergraduate degree has more immediate value and utility than a VoTech certification/credential in a demand field? We do just that regularly -- isn't that millish?

    Doesn't the overall value of a BA/BS decline as more people have one? How about the value of an MBA or PhD? And doesn't the quality of education also decline as we increase the admission numbers? Why would we want to perpetuate that problem by eliminating or denigrating the lower level alternative.

    My take, if you don't like DETC then go RA. If you don't like CCs then go to a four year. If you don't like Publics then go Private. And, if you don't like DL then go B&M.

    The friend of the OP felt that Asworth was the right place and credential for her. I applaud her decision. Her friend however thinks Ashworth is somehow substandard and is looking here for support of his conclusion.

    "It's just a no-name DETC associate degree by homestudy, it can't be as good....."

    I've heard the same story about all manner of DL courses and schools. "Well, they're just an online school..." and too about all manner of B&Ms "it's just UNCC..." Is this how we go about justifying that our own Alma Mater is the better, we lash out at others to make them look inferior? I don't think I like that too much. But then, my DL school is better than all the others out there. Everyone knows that!
     
  6. DaveHayden

    DaveHayden New Member

    Re: NA vs RA

    So more than 60% already ARE RA. This number includes the truck driving schools, beauty schools, etc. My point from the line you qoute was that most DETC schools would gladly change to RA if they could. How does the information you present impact that point?
     
  7. DaveHayden

    DaveHayden New Member

    Re: To Horatio and Busho4

    LOL. I wondered how long it would take a vistor from Jamestown to show. Not long! Nice avoidance of the issues and attempt at character assasination! Of course the RA or no way line is faulty logic whose only purpose is divert attention from the facts. Nice attempt but try again "Tom". :)
     
  8. DaveHayden

    DaveHayden New Member



    There is a whole lot of rambling there none of which pertains to the qoute you made and very little of it to the points I have made. Try to be more concise and it might be worth replying to.
     
  9. DaveHayden

    DaveHayden New Member

    Hi Bush04

    See "Tom's" post for my point. Either points are valid or not. They have NOTHING to do with your background or mine.
     
  10. DaveHayden

    DaveHayden New Member

    Horatio

    You are 100% correct. I didn't mean it that way, but that is EXACTLY how it came out. My apologies.
     
  11. CoachTurner

    CoachTurner Member

    OK Dave, maybe I need to spell it out for you since you don't get it....

    The question was asked whether a DETC school would universally accept RA credit into their program. That's the meat of the quote. Seems the intent was to say "it works in reverse so the inverse is inferior"

    Now, I say that a DETC program would not universally accept RA credit. They just wouldn't. They might. But they don't have to.

    I went on to explain why they might or might not (IMHO) but that isn't important in this discussion because you obviously can't/won't understand.

    Is that simple enough for you? I can reword so that it is even more concise.
     
  12. CoachTurner

    CoachTurner Member

    ...and I didn't mention your name in that post Dave. It wasn't entirely about your points. Are you really that vain as to think this was all for/about you? Some of my points are for the OP who may think your opinions are somehow as supported as you think they are.

    My discussion reads in part:

    It doesn't say "Dave" or "Tom" or "John" or anyone -- it says "Some". If that's you and you wish to debate then do so. If it's not you then don't take offense.

    So look here Dave, I don't know you or your credentials. I'll assume you don't really have some ax to grind re: Ashworth or other DETC schools. I certainly don't have any reason to defend Ashworth over anyone else.

    Reality is, whether you like it or not (and very few people will care whether you and I personally like it) -- DETC is recognized by the USDoE and they do have the right to refer to themselves as nationally accedited and if the consumer is not aware of the nuances of accreditation -- that's the consumers problem.

    It's really that simple!
     
  13. DaveHayden

    DaveHayden New Member

    LOL! No wonder it didn't make sense! I said "What DETC accredited school would turn down RA?" That is exactly what I ment. Not "What DETC accredited school would turn down RA CREDITS?" Perhaps you should read closer BEFORE going off on a bender!
     
  14. Casey

    Casey New Member

    Re: Re: NA vs RA

    That's not entirely true because I excluded a few national accreditors, including the National Accrediting Commission of Cosmetology Arts and Sciences. According to US DOE, they accredit 1025 institutions.

    If you include them, the NA total would be about 3669 and the RA total would be about 3207. This is assuming the US DOE database is accurate.
     
  15. DaveHayden

    DaveHayden New Member

    Coach

    I am willing to accept what you say about yourself. I certainly agree with the second paragraph above. It doesn't, however, make it a good or wise practice on Ashworth's part when they could so easily be more accurate within a few paragraphs. As I said BEFORE, I expect more of them and any other accredited school. You are, of course free to agree or disagree.
     
  16. Stanislav

    Stanislav Well-Known Member

    I disagree. Ashworth is using the term "national accreditation" exactly as it used by the industry of education. This includes educational institutions AND experts like Dr. Bear or Dr. Douglas. Yes, this specialized vocabulary is misleading, but not for any fault of Ashworth. Also, I don't see Ashworth advertising their programs as transfer programs, anyway. They are deliberately entry-level, lowest-possible-price vocational training provider. I kinda like this concept, it definitely has its place and value. Probably more so than expensive B&M tech schools like FMU and ITT Tech.
     
  17. DaveHayden

    DaveHayden New Member

    Re: Re: Re: NA vs RA

    So what I would find interesting is what percentage of Colleges and Universities (Remove career schools and all the other misc. "colleges") are RA. My hunch is 70-80%.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: May 31, 2005
  18. Stanislav

    Stanislav Well-Known Member

    Re: Re: Re: Re: NA vs RA

    Isn't Ashworth essentially a carreer college? Home-study, correspondence carreer college?
     
  19. CoachTurner

    CoachTurner Member

    OK - my misunderstanding

    Now, why would a DETC VoTech school want to be RA when the costs of doing so would eliminate the one very strong marketing advantage they have - cost?

    So that they can gain transferability of credit that won't tranfer to an RA 4-year anyway???

    Why? Aren't they worthy of being held to the same standard as anyone else.
     
  20. cyndidavis

    cyndidavis New Member

    Not to belabor...

    ...but I called Ashworth and asked specifically before I took any courses from them and they were very clear about the fact that some places would accept their credits while others would not. No beating around the bush. Just flat out said to research my next step now, rather than later.

    Based on their advice, I have done some research (partway through my 1st semester with them) and have changed my goals somewhat...instead of an associate's in paralegal studies, I am going for the JD.

    Now, when I called SCUPS (Southern California University for Professional Studies www.scups.edu ) they said they do accept Ashworth credits, as well as my ASN degree, and CLEP.

    So, I now need to know...what does anyone know about SCUPS? I spoke with someone on the phone there and they answered all my questions about the Bar pass rates and the Baby Bar pass rates and they were completely candid about the relative infancy of their JD program, numbers vs statistics, etc.

    Their website lists them as "approved under the Education Code of the State of California to offer degree programs and confer the appropriate degrees" and that the "Committee of Bar Examiners of the State of California has authorized registration of our School of Law, which enables our graduates to sit for the California Bar examination".

    Now this is all that the unaccredited B&M JD schools that I have researched have...should I look for more?

    Thanks in advance...
     

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