APUS withdrawing DETC accredidation

That could be possible, too. But is there any impartial study using the DETC's guidelines compared with the guidelines of other accreditors, to make some sort of conclusion on this?

Who knows, indeed. And my curiosity remains... how do we know that many DL-only schools haven't been disqualified based on superfluous standards, or standards that make it directly more difficult for DL-only schools? Further, how can it be measured? And who from the outside would decide on what makes the standard(s) overreaching? All we know right now is that the number of DL-only RA schools is small. I want to find out why.

Even so, I don't feel that having 46 schools offering degrees (96 schools overall) can exactly be considered opening the floodgates, especially compared to other accreditors like ACICS which currently has about 950 accredited institutions, NACCAS which accredits roughly 1,025 schools, ACCSC which accredits about 792 schools, ACCET accrediting around 627 schools, or COE accrediting something like 731 schools, with a few of the regional accreditors being stacked at similar levels as well (though I do take into account the age of some RA accreditation bodies).

I agree, but as I've said they're not the only accreditor be it regional or national having done that.

And I've made no argument against that. As I've said many times, the DETC has certainly made their share of mistakes like any other accreditor.

I will neither name names, nor rescind (I have the right to my view). And what's weak is your continued attempt to bait me into something that I've made clear I'm not comfortable doing, and won't be doing.

Secondly, my view on any of those schools is always based primarily on their public fiasco's that are in blatant, egregious violation of what educational institutions are mandated to do. Given the amount of expertise you communicate having on this matter, I can't help but find it disingenuous that you would act as if you're somehow unaware of a number of regionally accredited institutions having engaged in serious violations that became very public, from financial aid fraud, to awarding unearned degrees, or even RA schools with bad reputations (they don't exist? Ha!) as you asked me to point out in the last post. I have to feel certain that you're well aware of it all based on how you present yourself.

You'd have to explain what it is I'm supposedly "speculating" on? All I've been doing is offering up perspectives of possibility (could be viewed as questions if taken a different way) regarding the accreditation of DL-only schools, and stating my view on a program (DETC) I like overall. Am I not allowed to like something even if it has flaws? I don't think it's necessary or even practical for people to present scientific research for every single viewpoint they express. And, some of the support you're offering is not quite as damning as you've convinced yourself to believe it is, such as the point you offered matching accreditation timeframes which ignores all sorts of potential variables that you couldn't possibly be aware of without being directly involved in the process of those specific situations.

Hmmm. That's kind of a strange response... I honestly don't even know what the hell you're getting at there, lol. But I'm unconcerned with having an "identity" on any internet message board. I'd think if someone put much stock in that their personal lives would have to be seriously lacking.

I don't know how "convenient" it is or isn't. Your comments give the impression that you feel the DETC is not improving anything, and that flexibility is not an improvement (your words, not mine). I disagree with that thinking as I'm sure others would and not just in this context, so it doesn't make sense for me to start itemizing things you've already made clear you wouldn't see as an improvement to begin with. It's like trying to kiss someone who has adamantly expressed not wanting to be kissed; you already know what the outcome of that is going to be since you've been told it won't be accepted, so it makes no sense to try it.

Like I said, the DETC posts updates on improvements from time to time, they do exist. Some things I've read recently spoke to flexibility, you don't see flexibility as an improvement, so, okay, fine, there is nothing else to discuss on that matter.

I'm sorry you can't see that not everyone will or should share your exact sentiments on the same matter.

What you fail to understand is that I'm fully aware of many of the same things regarding the DETC. Show me where I've denied that they've made mistakes? The very fact that I've said they're making improvements all the time is a clear acknowledgement that I agree they're in need of improvements. But, I'm not going to hold their past mistakes against them forever when I feel they are making improvements, and when they have made corrections, especially knowing that they are neither the only one having made mistakes, nor the only one in need of improvement.

Also, I find it quite bewildering that you're taking this as if I've offered up a bunch of contentions against the specific issues you've pointed to about the DETC when I haven't done that at all. The central points I've made from the beginning are as follows:

-The DETC has made mistakes just like every other accreditor.
-The DETC has made respectable efforts to address a number of their mistakes.
-The DETC is making improvements all the time (your disagreement, based on what you feel qualifies as improvement has been noted, and we'll have to agree to disagree).

Never once have I said the DETC was perfect, hadn't made any mistakes, hadn't accredited bad schools, or denied any of the other negatives you've mentioned. If you can find something I've said that's different from this viewpoint, please post it.

 

DETC is far from what it used to be. I hold a degree from a DETC school, New Charter (AJU). I found no issues getting credit accepted at any other schools RA or not. I even used 45 AJU credits at Clovis, only had to take 15 hours to get a degree from them.

So I guess what some people have a problem with is lack of value to them personally. If that's the case why do people keep attacking something they will never use? Seems to me this issue drags people out to piss and moan about something they have nothing to do with. Also seems that the people with DETC degrees/credit are happy with them.

So if you have no DETC credits etc. how can you even comment negatively?

 

Precisely.

/end thread.

 

Let's not. And no, you're not. Because you post under a psuedonym, your experiences can't count as evidence (even if we were to accept it, it remains one meager data point).

Minor point: "Alumni" is plural. If you were a real person, you would be either an "alumnus" or "alumna."

Same point, except to emphasize that a singular experience might be interesting, it hardly preponderates against the real evidence available. (Have you ever read any of it? Or have you scanned the threads of this board to read about it?)

Since you're unwilling or unable to support your assertions, there's no point in continuing this, is there?

 

Again, you fail to provide any evidence (except some numbers of schools accredited) to support your assertions. And when you are asked to do so, you back away and blame me for asking. So I won't anymore, since you either cannot or will not support your own points.

Once again, a DETC shill fails to support his/her wishes.

 

Ummm....because the evidence conflicts with the hopes of their shills? Personally, I don't start threads about DETC. But I will contribute to them. That's hardly "attacking" something. If the DETC shills wouldn't offer up their unsubstantiated (and often contradicted) hopes, I wouldn't be writing any of this.

 

I love arguing with grammar Nazis (is that plural or singular?)…as they distract from the purpose and subject of the conversation. So fun.

Anyhow, I post under a pseudonym for professional and potential legal reasons as it gives me the ability to say whatever I really think and feel without worrying too much about any legal or professional backlash as I do not own the content or what happens with it as posted on this site. If someone doesn’t want to listen to me because I don’t attach my personal information and or resume to each and every post, that is their prerogative. I am of the opinion that regardless of source truth stands upon its own merit and this is a conversation, not an academic debate or paper. My experiences regarding vetting of applicants when it comes to education is not only true but is probably not very unique (note the “unique” is where my personal suspicions surface not backed by facts or formal academic research).

As for the “real evidence” I probably have all of Dr. Bear’s books (they are a favorite of mine) and I also possess and have read your full doctoral dissertation Dr. Douglas…would you like a copy? In fact not only am I aware of the sources you mention I am probably one of the few people on earth who would research accreditation to the extent that I have save for a handful of people on this forum. Take that into account with my “real world” experience and I think I have a pretty solid foundation upon which to base my opinion which is in fact an opinion albeit an extremely well informed one.

My opinion started with all the research, was tempered with my personal experience in being a graduate of a DETC accredited school and later solidified after years of professional experience not only in hiring but in the creation of my organization’s educational acceptance standards for our Human Resource critters. Actually I created a set of standards for my previous organization as well but that’s ancient history.

Here’s the big shocker that we don’t really pay much attention to on this forum...to most employers the education criteria is merely a check box, a weeding out point, a disqualifier and nothing more. They don’t give a rat’s ass about who accredited the degree which is why so many people are able to use degree mills or unaccredited degrees for years successfully. For the more astute HR types who do care about accreditation, they (most likely) refer to their corporate policy which usually includes language like what you would as provided by the U.S. Department of Education (Diploma Mills and Accreditation - Accreditation) at which point the education portion is again relegated to a mere check box. My company does this and the U.S. Department of Education's definition definitely meets the criteria of performing due diligence in policy creation. Is there a policy everywhere? Probably not, but it is an industry best practice for legal reasons and HR critters do tend to love their policies in writing.

There is far less time and energy spent vetting an applicant’s education than there is relevant industry experience and probably (opinion alert) even professional certifications and or itemized skill sets. Boiling down any conversation regarding employability to the granularity of national versus regional accreditation is almost a complete waste of effort except perhaps in discussions regarding working within academia. It’s absurd how much energy we waste fretting over this and that again, is my opinion.

Do I have time to document my experience and put together research or specifically call out where I disagree with portions of your dissertation? No, but if I did you can bet I’d be going for my doctorate degree rather than trying to win a pissing match here.

You believe DETC is a marginally valid accreditation with narrow utility, I disagree. You are informed on the matter, as am I. You have conducted academic research on the matter; I have read the research and tempered it with my own observations and experience. If you want to engage in an academic debate I recommend enrolling in school. If you want to have a conversation with adults who have valid opinions of their own please carry on. If anyone considers my opinion invalidated because I do not formalize my personal and professional experience into a narrowly focused academic work…well…perhaps they should teach for a living as in the real world sometimes you have to make decisions based upon the experience and opinions of others who may have “been there, done that”.

 

No, I don't. My assessment of DETC is that the acceptance of credits and degrees from schools it accredits is demonstrably lower than that of regionally accredited schools. "Demonstrably," because it's been demonstrated, even by DETC.

Individuals have found success despite their schools' DETC accreditation, certainly. Hooray for them. Of course, that was often said of graduates of unaccredited schools, even diploma mills. Faint praise.

It is worth discussing (yet again) because there are some posters who insist on making unsubstantiated statements about a matter (institutional accreditation) that can be crucial in one's selection of a school. Many readers of and posters on this board are engaged in just such decisions. We wouldn't want to steer them wrong, would we?

You can disagree, but this isn't a matter of opinion. Degrees and credits from DETC-accredited schools enjoy less acceptance in higher education and with employers. To what extent--and whether any particular individual will be impacted--is harder to pin down. But disagreeing by chalking that up to "opinion" is really just baseless denial.

Choosing an appropriate school is important. Accreditation status is a significant factor in that choice. Sure, that's my opinion, but it is also reflected in the three sources I cited earlier.

As for your experiences, they matter not at all, for there is no "you." And while your post is as erudite as it is long, it is still filled with conjecture unsupported by any evidence. In the case of HR, the evidence is in the other direction.

Finally, calling someone a "Nazi" of any kind is tasteless and rude. If one makes a typo or an irrelevant error (I've certainly made a few in the 20,000+ posts I've typed over the years across several boards and newsgroups), fine. But yours was relevant. One posting so much about higher education should probably understand the difference between the singular and plural of a term in such common use in this environment. And as I noted, it was a "minor point."

 

Thanks Steve…

As for the kind Doktor…alumni, alumnus, alumna…tomato, whatever. I rarely, rarely, rarely discuss my own education outside of this and one other forum and certainly never in a professional environment unless I am being interviewed so I can truthfully say I’ve used the words “alumni”, etcetera that I can count the times on one hand and still have enough fingers left over to pick my nose with. Forgive my ignorance and thank you for the free education. If you are however offended by the term Grammar Nazi, you have my most insincerest of apologies. (is “insencerest” a word?)

Back to the topic at hand, picking a school with the proper accreditation is important and generally I default to recommending regionally accredited schools unless I have good reason to recommend otherwise. That said, much like the “for profit” versus “non-profit” debate, we blow more hot air into this balloon than it has the capacity to hold. If DETC schools can be demonstrated to be of lower acceptance at what point in the margins does it become a moot point? .05% difference? 10% difference?

I read your dissertation and I’ve read several other writings on this very issue and I have come to my completely unsupported yet informed opinion that the margin of difference cannot be accurately called out as degree accreditation is rarely considered beyond what I have discussed above by private parties whose responsibility it is to hire. Now if you point it out, and draw their attention to it, and ask them to assume all other factors are the same, and explain the difference to them between accrediting agencies..and…and…and. Perhaps THEN they will make the distinction, but this is an exercise devoid of reality whether the results can be quantified or not.

I hope people who are in the decision process who are reading this post realize this. Accreditation is important, you should have it. Accreditation type is also important but much less so, especially in private business and to error on the side of caution I recommend regional accreditation. That said, if you like a DETC school and can afford a DETC school and you want to attend a DETC school then you should and it’s as simple as that. Sometimes we (by “we” I mean people like you Rich) seem to make the thought of attending a DETC school as a grave mistake which the alumna (thanks for the new word…see I’ve used it already) would regret for the remainder of their professional careers. I happen to disagree and also believe the utility is greater than we (and by “we” again I mean people like you Rich) often let on.

Now…it’s Corona time for old FOF…I’m on vacation. I’ll show you mine is bigger than yours when I get back next Wednesday

 

I'll pass.

 

With a few exceptions ... like grammar Nazi and soup Nazi

 

How about "DETC Shill?"

 

I've been called a straight-out Nazi more times than I can count. When I was on the mounted (horses) unit, I wore breeches, tall riding boots, a cross-strap, and a crushed hat, so at least I looked the part.

 

Interesting topic. I readily admit that I don't follow colleges and DETC nearly as much as I once did. That being said, it appears to be a very different game when you talk about DETC and secondary education.

Every few years, I pick some random colleges and call them to see if they would accept someone with a high school diploma from specific DETC schools. The answers come out quite positive with regard to DETC. I would be the first to admit that this approach is quite unscientific, but the results are interesting.

But, of course, high school is not college and the standard may be quite different.


Tom Nixon
Best Online High Schools

 

I don't have time or the "want-to" to get deep into this discussion but my DETC degree was paid for by a fortune 7 (at the time). Now I see they area little lower on the list but still...

Anyhoo, my degree was cheap and I thoroughly enjoyed my education. I really loved the paper based format. It was completely through independant study, which was really nice. I haven't felt any negative results but I have a pretty good resume for what I do.

 

Nice to hear from you, Tom!

 

Another DETC-related success story! Yay! (There are a lot of them out there.)

 

Well thank you for sharing your opinion as the arbiter of value in accreditation for education, o wise one. Wheeeew, and to think I used to think DETC was legit, wow thanks for setting us sclubs straight!