All state-approved degrees are legal and legitimate

Discussion in 'Accreditation Discussions (RA, DETC, state approva' started by Yakthumba, Jan 27, 2003.

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  1. Dennis Ruhl

    Dennis Ruhl member

    Yakthumba

    I think you should definitely get a California, no - a Lousiana, no wait a Missouri licensed doctorate.

    Then you can have a legal degree and everyone in academia can legally laugh at you.

    In my opinion state licensed degrees particularly California ones can be useful for personal satisfaction and to a certain degree in business.

    Just don't try to sell it as an academic doctoral qualification. Even in Nepal they probably know better.
     
  2. Bill Huffman

    Bill Huffman Well-Known Member

    Steve Levicoff, are you perhaps playing a little trick on us and pretending to be this Yakthumba fraud character? If so then I must say, BWA-HA-HA good one!
     
  3. Jack Tracey

    Jack Tracey New Member

    This genealogy buys you nothing in the USA. The fact that you would attempt to use some alleged claim to "nobility" only secures my notion that you are an insecure, and shallow individual.
    Jack
     
  4. uncle janko

    uncle janko member

    Hey Jack: It works for Nelson Mandela. Maybe the reason this fellow brought it up was the "purports to be from Nepal" earlier on.
     
  5. Bill Huffman

    Bill Huffman Well-Known Member

    Sir, getting a business license for a grocery store and a university is a comparable process in a number of states. Your statement about accreditation being super easy is also true. For example, frauds will create bogus accreditation agencies and then accredit their own bogus school. However, it absolutely does not follow that therefore it must be just as easy to buy accreditation from a bona fide accreditation agency.

    You keep repeating the lie that there are no laws or regulations that categorize schools. You've been told that this is untrue, yet you keep repeating this same lie. Here's a convenient website that I believe proves your repeated statement to be a lie.
    http://www.osac.state.or.us/oda/

    Finally, your assertion that since your lie is true that "it would not be legally acceptable to say that their degrees differ in quality and utility" is also without merit. The final evaluation of a degree is up to the employer that is considering the resume, for example. It would be ridiculous for there to be a law that a Harvard degree must be considered equivalent to all other degrees. There would be no way to even enforce such a stupid law even if they thought that it might accomplish something if it were passed.

    I still think that you must be someone that is just pulling our collective leg, though. In addition, I must admit that I've enjoyed it. :D
     
  6. Guest

    Guest Guest

    A True DL Disciple

    Bill,

    For someone who has no personal vested interest in DL, you speak with the passion of a true DL disciple. ;)
     
  7. timothyrph

    timothyrph New Member

    First I would like to thank the people who post in this forum. There is a lot of very good information here. Having read a lot of arguments like the one from Mr. Yakthumba, does anyone really buy this stuff?

    Thanks for the lesson on our constitution, absolutely fascinating. I once heard a boss say that America is a wonderful place if you just learn the rules. Mr. Yakthumba might do well here. Legal and right may not have a whole lot to do with each other. OJ is more innocent than I am of killing his ex-wife, he has a piece of paper that says so legally. I don't. Getting a license and selling a piece of paper may be legal....

    I have two friends. One is a youth pastor in a Baptist Church he went to school, and has performed ministry his entire life. He requires 6 weeks counseling before performing a marriage. The other got ordained by mail order to a church he does not remember to perform weddings in a wedding chapel his parents had built next to their floral shop. He has performed 6 weddings in one Saturday. Both will give you a legal piece of paper, which one values what he is giving you?

    Mr. Yakthumba, the people getting married sometimes are too excited or for whatever reason may not know the difference in service. But the "ministers" do. Just as the schools do.

    You might try your post in the letters to the editor section of USA Today. Someone there will appreciate it more.

    Again, thanks to the people who post here. You are extremely informative.
     
  8. Rich Douglas

    Rich Douglas Well-Known Member

    Actually, the verdict wasn't "innocent." It was "not guilty." That mean's the state failed to prove its case beyond a reasonable doubt. He might very well be innocent, but courts are not tasked with that determination.

    In addition, he has another piece of paper that says he caused their deaths. This resulted in the damages awarded in the civil suit.

    I wouldn't lust too heartily after O.J.'s "paper."
     
  9. timothyrph

    timothyrph New Member

    Perhaps I should have just ended it with this point. I understand some people not knowing the difference in argument that the degree is "legal", no one representing the school should misunderstand the difference. I was just wondering if the people who put up the "state approved therefore just as good" argument really believe what they are saying.

    The OJ point may have been a stretch, but if anyone has a mill that can print get out of jail free cards.......
     
  10. Bill Grover

    Bill Grover New Member

    Re: Re: All state-approved degrees are legal and legitimate

    =======

    Now I resent that! My heritage (McKinley on Mom's side) goes back to 17thc Scottish clan leaders and on Dad's side there was, maybe, a Cherokee chief:D
     
  11. Bill Grover

    Bill Grover New Member

     
  12. Yakthumba

    Yakthumba New Member

    RE:State-approved degrees are legal and legitimate

    Thanks for your very illuminating replies!I'm really beginning to enjoy the discussions.I just looked up Oregon's Office of Degree Authorization(ODA) web page and found the following statement: "In order to be intrinsically valid in Oregon as a public credential usable for general academic or professional purposes, under ORS 348.609 a claimed degree must have been awarded by a school that:
    (a) Has accreditation recognized by the U.S. Department of Education or has the foreign
    equivalent of such accreditation; or
    (b) Has been approved through the Office of Degree Authorization to offer and confer degrees in Oregon."
    This just proves what I have already stated:that every state has its own jurisdiction and is independent in making and implementing its own laws and regulations in the state.It's perfectly all right for Oregon not to recognize other states' approved degrees.But it surely recognizes its own ODA approved degrees as legal and legitimate and can be used for general academic or professional purposes in Oregon and some other states.Even Montana will not recognize Oregon state-approved degrees if they are not approved by Montana.CA approved degrees are recognized by the state of CA and are perfectly legal and legitimate in CA and some other states.But this is not what I meant by categorization.There should be an official categorization of schools at the national level by the US Dept.of Education so that it is universally accepted by all.Even if the RA schools accept as much as 50% DETC accredited degrees,it shows that DETC degrees are not equally accepted as RA degrees whereas all RA degrees are fully accepted by all RA schools.But if DETC degrees were officially categorized as second best to RA degrees then the 50% rejection by RA schools would be perfectly acceptable.Therefore,if the schools are officially categorized then the degrees are accepted as categorized and no discrimination occurs. And as for a Harvard degree,it is not the reputation or the name of the school that matters more but the actual competence and performance of the degree holder. There is no guarantee that a Harvard degree will buy you a ticket to the moon.Every degree holder has an equal opportunity. Even a graduate from an obscure Montana state school (no offence meant) might be more competent than the Harvard graduate and fare better in life. How many Harvard graduates are billionaires?Zero(Bill Gates went to Harvard but dropped out. Maybe he never had faith in the Harvard degree to make him a billionaire?).How many Harvard graduates were the Presidents of the USA?Only one I know of:John F.Kennedy.How many Harvard graduates are the CEO's of Fortune 500 companies?Negligible.How many Harvard graduates are presidents of universities? Negligible.How many Harvard graduate professors taught you in school? Maybe a few?There you have the statistics.

    If the government has recognised and validated that only RA degrees are considered legal and legitimate,why doesn't the same government close down all the state-approved or licensed or whatever schools if they are not considered legal and legitimate but just degree mills?If people are being truly swindled by these state-approved degree mills,isn't it the government's duty to take legal actions against them?Was Columbia Pacific University which was operating in CA for more than 23 years closed down because it was state-approved?The fact is:If the school is a legal entity the degrees it awards are legitimate just as a child is legitimate if the parents are legally married.

    Truly yours,
    Yakthumba(Kirat),Esq.
    The Kirats were great warriors as well as great rulers.They also fought in the battle of Kurushetra as depicted in the epic Mahabharata which is considered as an Indian version to Homer's Iliad.
     
  13. Rich Douglas

    Rich Douglas Well-Known Member

    Certainly there are employers in Oregon who do not accept unaccredited degrees, even if the issuing schools are approved by the ODA.

    Try getting into the University of Oregon or Oregon State based upon holding an unaccredited degree.

    There are jobs with the State of Oregon for which a degree from an unaccredited school would not qualify.

    Recognition of degree-granting colleges and universities comes from employers and other higher educational institutions and organizations. It does not come from state licensing or approval, which is simply a permission to operate.

    State licensing or approval simply does not meet the test of what is and isn't recognized as a degree-granting institution. In the U.S., that is the function of recognized accreditation.

    Involvement by the U.S. DoE with "ranking" or "categorizing" schools and/or their forms of recognition would add nothing to the process. The marketplace and higher educational institutions are already doing this. Your inaccurate description of this dynamic doesn't change it.

    How many Harvard graduates were Presidents? Try the current one, for starters. I would suggest the rest of your research is equally lacking.
     
  14. BillDayson

    BillDayson New Member

    Re: RE:State-approved degrees are legal and legitimate

    The truth of that assertion depends on what you mean by 'legitimate'.

    Nobody denies that legally licensed schools operate in accordance with the law and with the established legal forms and requirements in the jurisdiction in which they reside.

    The dispute revolves around whether or not the education that legally licensed schools deliver and the degrees that they grant conform to recognized educational standards.

    If you want to collapse these two issues together, then you need to conclusively demonstrate that every legal licensing procedure guarantees the maintaince of precisely those educational standards that are expected by the wider educational and professional communities.

    If the legal licensing procedure doesn't guarantee that the expected standards are met, then a degree may come from a legally licensed school but nevertheless be educationally spurious and false.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Feb 3, 2003
  15. Bill Grover

    Bill Grover New Member

    Re: RE:State-approved degrees are legal and legitimate

     
  16. timothyrph

    timothyrph New Member

    BTW from a website on Harvard. presidents of the United States who graduated from Harvard.
    John Adams
    John Quincy Adams
    Theodore Roosevelt
    Franklin Roosevelt
    Rutherford B Hayes
    John F Kennedy
    Geroge W. Bush

    In answer to the question about 1/6 of our presidents graduated from Harvard. Of course I can't even name the current leader in Nepal.

    How many graduated from an unaccredited school?
     
  17. Bill Huffman

    Bill Huffman Well-Known Member

    Wow!! That is an amazingly HUGE percentage.

    I guess it is just another example that Mr. Yakthumba sounds really good while he is giving false and misleading information. Although I was pleased to see that he is grounded in reality enough that he has slightly corrected some of his more blantantly false statements.
     
  18. Rich Douglas

    Rich Douglas Well-Known Member

    Having a degree from a school that is operating legally can still get you into trouble. Many degree mills have been closed despite being established legally in their respective states. Columbia State, California Pacifica, Southwestern, Southland, etc. And people have gotten into plenty of trouble for using degrees from such schools. Ask Coach Saldana, formerly of UCLA (and proud graduate of Columbia State).
     
  19. Yakthumba

    Yakthumba New Member

    RE:State-approved degrees are legal and legitimate

    Congratulations,Timothyrph,for your excellent homework on Harvard graduate Presidents.Yes, seven Harvard graduates have become Presidents(The Magnificent Seven?)It's only that out of the seven,I prefer John F.Kennedy(resembled Steve McQueen?)Handsome and dashing?His forefathers came from Ireland?and the Irish are fighters,too,(Gangs of New York?)and I like fighters and best of all I like his famous speech,"Ask not what your country can do for you but ask what you can do for your country",goes something like that?And I remember also the great poet Robert Frost famous for his poem,"The woods are dark and lovely but I have promises to keep and miles to go before I sleep" something like that?being present at Kennedy's inauguration.But Marilyn Monroe was definitely not present at the inauguration.But she sang to him on his birthday.He almost went on a warpath,putting on his warpaints just like the Siuox? Apaches?Crows?Mohicans?Cherokees?whatever and beat the hell out of Nikita Kruschev in the Bay of Pigs drama.He instantly became my ideal hero.Great statesman,great orator and a true gentleman and a ladies man,too.Full credit goes to Harvard.Too bad he was assasinated and died very young.Why is it that popular people get assasinated?Abe Lincoln,Zachery Taylor?,Robert Kennedy,Martin Luther King,Jr.,John Lennon,Bob Marley and so on and on.

    Anyway,the argument presented by Rich Douglas,BillDayson and Bill Glover seem quite enlightening.But on one hand you accept that state-approved degrees are legal and accepted in the workplace,too,and on the other hand you also doubt their utility and legality and say they are just worthless piece of papers.Rich Douglas does seem to be somewhat in sympathy with CA state-approved degrees.You admit there are genuine state-approved schools and really bad degree mills too.BillDayson states that the actual dispute is whether legally licensed schools deliver the goods which conform to recognized educational standard.I agree,but what is the yardstick used to measure that standard?Why do the schools have to go through qualitative review and assessment and evaluation to meet the minimum standard determined by the BPPVE to be approved?The approval process does seem very rigorous in CA.And every three years the approved schools are visited by inspection and review teams from the BPPVE to see whether the standard is maintained or not.Columbia Pacific Unversity (CPU) was closed down in CA but is operating somewhere with a new name.In fact many schools who couldn't meet this standard left CA to states where the process was more lax and you are right without a shadow of doubt in labelling them as degree mills.But what about the genuine state-approved schools?If they are not degree mills then why do we not accept them as legal and legitimate?Do all the schools have to be blessed by the RA agencies to be legal and legitimate?Isn't state-approval considered an alternative recognition of degrees by the states since accreditation is an entirely voluntary process?

    Mr.Yakthumba(Kirat)
    Yalamber was the first Kirat king who ruled Nepal.In fact at that time,whoever ruled in the Kathmandu Valley(the Capital),ruled Nepal.Once upon a time,Kathmandu was called Kastamandap."Kasta" means wood and "Mandap" means temple(A temple made entirely of wood from a single tree).
     
  20. Jeff Hampton

    Jeff Hampton New Member

    While were at it, we might as well also toss out the Zagat's and Michelin Guides and give all restaurant critics a pink slip. Clearly, all restaurants that pass state health inspection are of equal quality.
     

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