ABA Approves Hybrid distant ed Law Degree at RA school

Discussion in 'General Distance Learning Discussions' started by Randy Kearns, Dec 18, 2013.

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  1. Randy Kearns

    Randy Kearns Member

  2. Gau555

    Gau555 New Member

    Also note:
    Starting in 2015, students who opt for the hybrid will spend 12 weeks a semester taking online classes from home, sometimes through live webcasts, said Eric Janus, law school dean. Half the credit hours will still be taught on campus, but they’ll be squeezed into intensive weeklong marathons at the beginning or end of each term.


    source: William Mitchell law school first to offer ABA-approved online degrees | Star Tribune
     
  3. nosborne48

    nosborne48 Well-Known Member

    Hm. Interesting development.
     
  4. CalDog

    CalDog New Member

    William Mitchell College of Law is exactly the sort of law school that might be expected to try this.

    There are four law schools in Minnesota, and they are all located in Minneapolis-St. Paul. They all have to compete with each other for the same students, in a time of falling law school enrollments. WMCL is the lowest ranked of the four, and in the weakest competitive position.

    So their enrollments are collapsing. Just a few years ago, they reported 357 total matriculations (full-time and part-time). But for the Fall 2013 entering class, they got only 238 (down by one third). And to make matters worse, WCML is a "standalone" law school. They don't have the financial backing of a larger university; they have to cover all of their costs from law school tuition alone.

    So they are probably desperate to offer something new -- something that will give prospective students a good reason to pick WMCL over other local law schools. There are a number of other ABA-approved law schools in similarly tough circumstances, and I predict that they will start putting pressure on ABA to approve similar programs.

    Don't expect anything to change immediately though. The new WMCL program isn't scheduled to start until January 2015. And it's a part-time, 4-year program, so there won't be any graduates until 2019. We may have to wait until 2020 or later before ABA is ready to declare this experiment a success or failure.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 18, 2013
  5. CalDog

    CalDog New Member

    The tuition cost for WMCL's experimental hybrid JD program is $27,050 per year. Since it is a 4-year program, the total tuition would be $108,200 (assuming no future tuition increases).

    The tuition cost for WMCL's traditional B&M JD program is $18,550 per semester. Since it is a 3-year, 6-semester program, the total tuition would be $111,300 (again assuming no future tuition increases).

    So there is no significant cost benefit, in terms of tuition, from the hybrid program. Presumably a student in the hybrid program might save on living expenses, since it would not be necessary to move to Twin Cities. But the school itself charges similar amounts for both the traditional and hybrid programs.

    To put it another way, the hybrid JD program may be experimental and non-traditional in terms of delivery. The tuition, on the other hand, is quite traditional.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 19, 2013
  6. CalDog

    CalDog New Member

    I meant to link to the following coverage: "Law School To Offer ‘Hybrid’ Online J.D., But The Tuition Will Be Traditional As All Get Out"
     
  7. TEKMAN

    TEKMAN Semper Fi!

    The problem that most JD holders do not practice law. Then what is the purpose of attending law school, unless you want to be a politician.
     
  8. sideman

    sideman Well Known Member

    To a degree I see your point which, correct me if I'm wrong, is why spend the years of study and pay the money if you won't practice law to justify the time and expense? This makes an argument from the economic standpoint. But what about from a knowledge perspective? All law schools teach legal analysis and how to break complex problems down into a concise and cogent format. Also the study of law will forever change the way you view things in the world. You will see things from a legal perspective and that in itself is difficult to put a price on. I also think a lot of law students don't understand the liability of becoming an attorney and how easy it is to run afoul of the law that you practice. That in itself is reason to scare off a lot of would-be lawyers including myself.
     
  9. CalDog

    CalDog New Member

    Nobody doubts that the study of law can provide valuable knowledge, even if you never actually practice law.

    But nobody doubts that the costs can be extremely high. The reality is that it's hard for most people to justify the price tag of an ABA-approved JD, unless it actually results in a high-paying legal job. For example, the hybrid JD program discussed in this thread will cost an estimated $108,000 after it starts in 2015, and that assumes no living expenses. Most students in traditional ABA-approved programs are actually paying significantly more than that.

    But there is currently a substantial oversupply of JDs on the market, which means that many recent graduates are unable to find good jobs with their very expensive degrees. For example, only 49.2% of the WMCL Class of 2012 have found employment in full-time, long-term legal jobs.

    And since student loan debt is not dischargeable in bankruptcy, the study of law may forever change the way that the world views your credit rating.

    True, it is difficult to quantify the exact value -- but many disappointed and underemployed JDs are questioning whether it was worth the $100,000 to $200,000 that they paid.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 21, 2013
  10. CalDog

    CalDog New Member

    Nobody doubts that the study of law can provide valuable knowledge, even if you never actually practice law.

    The problem is that it's hard for most people to justify the price tag of an ABA-approved JD unless it actually results in a high-paying legal job. For example, the hybrid JD program discussed in this thread will cost an estimated $108,000 after it starts in 2015, and that assumes no living expenses. Most students in traditional ABA-approved programs are actually paying more than that.

    But there is currently a substantial oversupply of JDs on the market, so many recent graduates are unable to find good jobs with their very expensive degrees. For example, only 49.2% of the WMCL Class of 2012 have found employment in full-time, long-term legal jobs.

    And since student loan debt is not dischargeable in bankruptcy, the study of law may forever change the way that your credit rating is viewed too.

    True, it is difficult to quantify the exact value -- but it seems likely that it is not worth $100,000 to $200,000 for most people.
     
  11. sideman

    sideman Well Known Member

    You immediately came to the conclusion that I am arguing for law school for all and damn the amount of the price of admission. That's not what I intended and I resent that you twisted my words to suit your exclusively economic argument. Law is not the peach of a field it once was and granted for many it just doesn't make sense to pursue it. But make no mistake, lawyers control the way we function in our society and for better or worse will continue to do so.
     
  12. CalDog

    CalDog New Member

    Your post mentioned some of the advantages of a law school education. I simply mentioned some of the drawbacks.

    I'm sorry about your intentions and your resentment. But I quoted your exact words. They weren't "twisted".

    No argument there.

    No argument there either.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 21, 2013
  13. sanantone

    sanantone Well-Known Member

    Can't someone just read some books? Other much cheaper options for studying law are a certificate, associates, or bachelors degree in paralegal studies and a masters degree in legal studies.
     
  14. FJD

    FJD Member

    I think this is an interesting program, but agree that the price has got to come down. The school's website says their average discount rate is about 25%, so that could bring tuition down to about $80K. Assuming travel, books, and other related costs are paid along the way instead of rolled into loans, the price isn't completely terrible. Also, you could cover the tuition entirely with federal loans (about 20K/yr.), which is a much better deal all-around from the student's perspective, as you get a liberal deferment and forbearance, a choice of repayment plans (especially the public service forgiveness program), among other benefits. Would I take this program at this price if I had to do it over again? No, not unless I couldn't get into a better school but was determined to become a lawyer anyway, although taking courses mainly online rather than facing the traditional torture of the Socratic method would be a big plus. But this is a good first step towards rethinking and redesigning traditional law school, no doubt.
     
  15. CalDog

    CalDog New Member

    You have to be very careful with numbers like that. The school actually says something slightly different:

    What's the difference? The statistic only refers to entering students -- not all students.

    Law schools commonly offer attractive scholarships to entering students -- but with a catch. The catch is that the scholarship is not necessarily guaranteed for the full 3 years of attendance (or 4 years for part-timers). To keep the scholarship, the student must maintain a certain GPA or class ranking. This cutoff is then set relatively high, to guarantee that many scholarship recipients will lose the funding after their first year. This practice was covered in a 2011 story by the New York Times.

    The official ABA data for this school indicate that only 45.1 % of all part-time students get grants/scholarships, and the median amount in those cases is only $15,238.
     
  16. sideman

    sideman Well Known Member

    You spun my words to fit your argument. Big difference.
     
  17. CalDog

    CalDog New Member

    Technically, the new WMCL program isn't "mainly online". It is 50% online and 50% B&M:

    *****

    The step itself is reasonable -- the issue is with the timing. Many people would argue that the need for law school reform is urgent. But this program isn't scheduled to graduate any JDs until 2019, as noted in post #4 above. And then it will take more time to see how they do on the bar exam and in the job market.
     
  18. FJD

    FJD Member

    Well, if I took a semester worth of courses that met for 12 weeks online and then one week in-person, I would call that "mainly online." I get what the school is saying by 50/50; that's probably what it took to get the ABA to sign off on the program. I would expect it to not be 50/50 in practice. There only so much you can get done in one week. They're law students, but also human beings (most of them, anyway). Also, it will take a long time to reform legal education. It's just a risk-averse industry that is slow to embrace new technologies. I don't know if you're a lawyer, or just a know-it-all (or a know-it-all lawyer for that matter-like me), but what would you like to see happen? I think that the third year should be mostly an externship and clinical year where students learn practical skills, network, and "try out" for firms. Oh, and schools should provide free bar exam prep in the third year, too.
     
  19. CalDog

    CalDog New Member

    I have no first-hand knowledge of the legal education system. I do know people with such experience -- some of them have had reasonably good outcomes, others have had financially disastrous outcomes.

    I have heard similar recommendations from other people. They make sense to me, but my opinion may not count for much, since I have never been in law school myself. I do think there should be a greater diversity of legal education models, some of which should be at much lower price points.

    I think the law school situation matters to everyone who is interested in higher education, not just the legal community specifically. Obviously law schools are facing particular problems at the moment with soaring costs, oversupply of graduates, and falling enrollments. But these problems aren't unique to law schools -- other sectors of higher education are facing them too, or will face them in the future.
     

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