a GSST doctoral dissertation

I addressed this issue with Dr. Graves about a month ago. He said DETC had too many restrictions and TRACS was out of the question until they could add full time staff.

He assured me GSST credits were completely transferable to ACCS if accreditation was of concern.

At no time did he ever attempt to mislead me about accreditation, in fact, he was very helpful with options (including contact names and numbers) if I chose to pursue an accredited program.

 

And I hope ACCS will retain accreditation. But maybe not! Then which accred school will open the gates wide for GS grads?

I wonder if ACCS would like this particular dissertation.

I wonder why so many Golden State profs are ACCS DMiners(c).

I agree with Barry that an NA DMin is better than an unaccredited DMin. But does GS have any prof with an RA doc? If so, how many? I'll go look

Now I feel bad for kicking another, GS, when he's down. This forum stirs up my lower nature Where's Russell to instruct me on the entire sanctification I need?

 

Clarification

GSST has been consulting with Sue at DETC for a while now about making application. The target was May 2003. GSST was in close communication with DETC to make sure we were in line with their policies. This I called “in the process” because we were indeed “working” with the DETC manual and communicating with DETC. It was made very clear that “when” we officially filed we would drop our doctoral programs. GSST never stated that we filed but that we were “in the process” of seeking recognized accreditation. We would have filed with DETC but they changed many of their policies on us. We were working with the 2001 manual. For example, DETC told us that it was OK to operate as a religious exempt institution. Now that is no longer acceptable. So, we have to wait. There are many little things that DETC changed just recently. For the record GSST has NEVER made any public announcements about seeking DETC. (Of course now I am saying publicly that we were at one time seeking DETC accreditation). We have only answered the inquiries of those asking. I have noticed that a lot of what is posted on DegreeInfo.com is misinformation from people our plainly do not know all the facts. GSST never had an onsite visit from DETC. We have only worked with them as other institutions do when they plan to file with an agency. We apologize for any confusion but GSST was not the source of any of the rumors flying around. I personally said we were pursuing accreditation with DETC in private emails from people asking because we were. Working through their manual and consulting with them constitutes in my book, “in the process.”

Here is a perfect example of someone making a statement of which they have no clue.

"2) These statements about the "core of the program" can only refer to a reading list. A reading list doth not a program make. Anybody can put anybody on a reading list. That scarcely serves to associate Geisler or Zacharias with GSST."

I have been talking with Ravi Zacharias personally about the MApol I am working WITH him on it. RZIM will have copies of all the courses I write around Ravi’s material. They will also point students our way concerning studying Ravi’s material for seminary credit. He will be very much involved with the final product. I would suggest that uncle janko research his facts first!
I guess this illustrates the problem with Internet forums. Most folks just have half a truth and run with it. It’s called gossip and slander. Please refrain from such childish name-calling. GSST is not a degree mill and we enjoy transferability to many accredited schools, even regionally accredited.

Sincerely,
Kenny Rhodes

 

Re: Clarification

we enjoy transferability to many accredited schools, even regionally accredited.

Sincerely,
Kenny Rhodes [/B][/QUOTE]

===


Thanks Kenny for your input.

Would you name a few of those RA or ATS seminaries which would consistently on the basis of, ie because of, the Golden State MDiv accept that applicant into either a DMin or a PhD or a ThD program. I do not mean on some waver , as ATS schools, I think, can allow up to 10% of persons in even if they have no grad degree at all. But that route would be no evidence of the GS acceptability would it.

When you provide that short list of 3 or 4 only I will contact those schools and will post the results of those inquiries in this very thread to prove your point regarding the utility of your school's degrees .

Also what is your take on what I assume is the ThD dissertation here posted? Is that in fact the dissertation? Is that representative of the GS ThD dissertations in general?

Thanks,

 

Re: Re: Clarification

===


I do not mean on some waver , as ATS schools, I think, can allow up to 10% of persons in even if they have no grad degree at all. But that route would be no evidence of the GS acceptability would it.

===

No, I should say rather one might be accepted into a four year ThM or a three year MDiv w-out any degree. I doubt that one would be admitted into a doc tho w-out a masters. But admittance by a waver will prove not the sending school's utility but the receiving school's broadmindedness and grace. And grace is undeserved favor . And while to be accepted by God because of grace is good in my thought to be accepted by a school only because of grace is not.

 

No school can guarantee acceptance into a doctoral program based on their master’s degree (or say, because of).

We have a number of schools that have accepted our degrees. Masters Seminary in California is one that fits the exact criteria you are asking for (to the best of my knowledge). They have even written us a letter for the military stating that our programs are comparable to those of USDE/CHEA accredited schools. Also, Western Baptist, OR., (RA) accepts our credits and even sends their students our way to make up credit deficiencies so they can graduate on time. We also have the TRACS accredited schools that have written us letters for the military as well, ACCS being one. We also recently had a student accepted into American Intercontinental University. And I have been accepted into a GAAP PhD program with a DRE from GSST (I do have a little extra work to do because a DRE is not a research degree) but I am waiting to see what unfolds at ACCS before I change schools. (You have to plan ahead, but I think ACCS will make it.)

As for the dissertation that you mentioned, it is only the first draft. We have a first draft, second draft and final draft at GSST. (I have not even read it yet.)

Sincerely,
Kenny Rhodes

 

The letter from Masters Seminary states that our M.Div. is comparable to an accredited M.Div. So, yes, they would be an example.

I know exactly what you are saying brother. Trinity does say similar things but with my experience what I said is the truth, the USDE says the same thing. BUT they (TTS) claim accreditation and we do not. (As you remember I was the one who told you about the Trinity accreditation issue, we even had a little debate ourselves in the T-DELTA forum. So, you know I am not trying to pull the wool over anyone’s eyes. ) We are very honest and forthright about it and that is a plus to our transferability.

As for the guaranteed acceptance of degrees, a PhD from Fuller would not be accepted at Dallas. It is a very relative thing. It is a ‘case by case’ thing. No school can guarantee anything. I cannot guarantee that Masters would accept all of our MDiv grads either. Neither does ACCS “guarantee” GSST students anything but I have their letter right in front of me that says our programs are equal to theirs. At one point ACCS wanted to merge with GSST and have GSST be their Internet division. (As you can tell, there are many similarities between the two.)

As for my situation, I will tell you privately what school accepted me. Personally, I do trust those in this forum. Pleasing the Lord is far from the minds of many that are involved here. I have read most of the posts here and I have to shake my head at those who can find fault in RC Sproul, Walter Martin and James White because their degrees are not accredited. All the brainpower put together in this forum could not equal one RC Sproul! I am sure the Lord is far less concerned with accreditation than we are. I am Southern Baptist and our seminaries have sold out for accreditation. When you have seminaries with Professors that do not even believe that the Bible is God’s word that is a problem. There is also a Baptist University in California with an occultist teaching for it but you can’t fire her because she’s tenured. God have mercy on us because we are so foolish at times.

Kenny

 

Hi Pastor Kenny,

I appreciate all the comments you have made regarding GSST. I do, however, have a suggestion. I think it would be in GSST's best interest to have only one person disseminate any transmissions regarding the pursuit of accreditation. At the very least the stories should be consistent. As an M.Div. student at GSST I proudly relayed what I was told regarding DETC as I was glad about possible DETC accreditation. One more suggestion: Don't expend time and energy trying to convince the naysayers and nattering nabobs of negativism GSST is not a degree mill. It is a waste of time. May God bless you, brother.

 

Re: Clarification

I hope you can understand how utilizing the term “in process” is, at best, extremely misleading. Perhaps GSST had engaged in some kind of internal process, but the DETC’s “process” of accreditation begins with an application. As such, GSST was never “in process” with the DETC.

How and to whom was this made “very clear?” Your own students are making statements about what they were told that demonstrate a complete lack of clarity.

Once again, it is very troubling that you do not understand how this statement, just like the accreditation statements on GSST’s Web site, is extremely misleading if not blatantly dishonest.

Wait a minute. We've heard stories about accreditors changing policies on applicants before. They rang hollow then, and they ring hollow now. The DETC updates their accreditation manual annually and it is available free on their Web site. Do you realize the incredible magnitude of incompetence that GSST demonstrated by working with an outdated manual? It is inconceivable that anyone who approached the process seriously would do such a thing.

Moreover, where did you get the information that institutions with religious exemptions are no longer acceptable? Among the Eligibility Requirements listed in the latest (2003) DETC Accreditation Handbook is the following:

• The institution must be properly licensed, authorized, exempt or approved by the applicable state educational institutional authority (or its equivalent for non-U.S. institutions). The institution must also be in compliance with all applicable local, state, and federal requirements. Exemptions from state law, etc. must be documented. [emphasis added]

What is that supposed to mean? Wait for what? You seem to be implying, once again, that some form of accreditation is in GSST’s immediate future.

Once again, the DETC updates its accreditation manual annually. The last update is dated June 2003. If you were in contact with the DETC (to the extent of claiming to be “in process”) then you should of been aware of their requirements. To imply that they were changing the rules on you is dishonest, and serves only to cover up GSST’s deficiencies and incompetence.

I hope you understand that the DETC frowns upon stating that you are “in process” (especially to prospective students, and even if done so privately) prior to being granted candidacy.

More than once, Jimmy Clifton, a student in your M.Div. program has posted a message stating that Dr. Graves told him that the DETC conducted a site visit. Are you saying that Jimmy Clifton purposefully posted information that he knew to be false? Either Jimmy Clifton or Dr. Graves was untruthful.

Characterizing what you were doing as being “in the process” is extremely self serving and dishonest. I am sure the DETC would agree, as Sue Reilly, Director of Accreditation for the DETC told me that GSST was never “in the process.” The “process” of accreditation, according to the DETC, begins with an application; it is their “process,” therefore they get to choose when it starts. This is clearly stated on page 19 of the 2003 DETC Accreditation Handbook.

• ”The process of accreditation begins when an institution or organization submits its application to the Commission’s Washington, D.C. office.”

All in all, Dr. Rhodes, your statements cast doubt whether GSST was ever truly serious about pursuing accreditation, and instead just alluded to the “process” as a marketing ploy.

 

I believe Jimmy, in his usual roundabout way, has just publicly accused Dr. Graves of lying to him concerning GSST’s pursuit of accreditation and the DETC’s site visit.

I hope you understand, Pastor Kenny, that when your own students accuse the President of GSST of lying about such an important matter as accreditation, it is a very serious matter; only degree mills act in such a manner. Therefore, if anyone is disparaging and denigrating GSST on this forum, it is Jimmy Clifton.

 

Kenny dollink: Thank you for your posts. My statements were based on your quote. Repudiate your own words if you want to repudiate my conclusions. Your post about DETC is a blizzard of obfuscation. Either DETC did a site visit or they did not. For a brief, shining moment, I almost thought that poor Dr Clifton had been had. I almost felt sorry for him. Having read your posts, I really must wonder now about poor Dr Zacharias. Poor Dr Clifton has a point: as a person very experienced in unusual assertions, perhaps you ought to grant him a monopoly of representing your fine school.

You know what the worst part about all this millspeak from GSST pere-et-fils really is? Having looked at your website any number of times, I used to think that yours was a reputable though undistinguished school, whose extremely low-budget tuition compensated for your lack of accreditation. I used to think that the odd queue of your professors seeking degrees from ACCS as supplements to the same degrees already acquired from your school represented a concern to "upgrade" academic qualifications. Despite seeing no signs of poor Dr Clifton's fabled repentance--his claim by which he seeks to exempt himself from any and all criticism--I used to think that perhaps he was now on the right track as a student at your school.

Now that you have cheerfully ignored my own long track record on this forum as a cautious but steadfast supporter of many unaccredited schools, now that you have tried both to associate your school with Dr Martin, Dr Sproul pere, and Dr White and to associate posters here with those who hold Martin's, Sproul's and White's unaccredited degrees against them, now that poor Dr Clifton has begun to quote the late Spiro T. Agnew olov hasholom, now that you have made Dr Levicoff's vehemence against you appear not only charming but blazingly accurate, and now that you appear to have trifled with Bill Grover's goodwill (who is certainly an Israelite without guile and a scholar whose sandals...), you have made a case against your school which I could not have made, would not have made, nor would have thought of making.

Oh. One other thing. You said "Pleasing the Lord is far from the minds of many that are involved here." I really did not know that agreeing with you equaled pleasing Him. Ag shame, I shall have to redouble my Bible study. Work work work work...

 

BLD:

The email you received from Kenny Rhodes certainly gives the impression that GSST was much further along in the accreditation process than they actually were, doesn’t it? Moreover, believing that Jimmy is accurate in his statements concerning the information he received from GSST is tantamount to believing that Dr. Graves lied to Jimmy.

 

It is clear to me that reasoning with you guys is not an option. If my email to Barry was misunderstood than I do apologize. Barry was very clear about the fact that we had not filed when he emailed me. We were doing our self-study with the DETC manual in hand and talking to Sue at DETC. If that is misleading about what was going on then again, my apologies. We purchased our manual in 2001 and began work. In the 2003 manual many things changed. We did not know about the changes until May 2003.

You can call DETC yourself. They will not accredit a school that is religious exempt. That is what we were told. DETC wants a regulatory body over the institution before we file. This was not the case earlier.

And the fact remains that Dr Zacharias is very willing to work with me, so, I will trust Ravi's assessment of what we are doing then you. (What can you claim for yourself besides a bad attitude) Are you more qualified than Ravi? Do you work in higher education or are you just an armchair critic with no real educational experience to draw from? Have you served in a school and sought accreditation? It is amazing to me that so many can be experts with out any experience in the field you criticize. You can stay in your own obscure little world here and talk all you want. But I have clearly stated the facts. We NEVER enticed any students with the promise of accreditation and we will move forward with the Lord’s blessing.

This will be my last post. Brother Bill you can email me privately if you want.

Kenny

 

Kenny dollink:

Thanks for the extra helping of aimless invective. Yum! I have questioned the contradictions and utter lack of clarity issuing forth from GSST. You, on the other hand, have impugned my credentials (3 RA degrees completed; another underway), experience (20 years as pastor + 7 years RA university instructor), and ethics (a matter for my confessor). I noticed on the GSST website that you have NO degrees from accredited institutions, although you are enrolled in an NA institution now. Good luck with your studies.

Let me reiterate: before reading the stuff you posted in this thread, I had a positive view of GSST. Having observed other unaccredited schools behaving badly, I really truly hoped GSST was different. This had been my settled view for quite some time. You blew that out of the water! You expect me (and everybody else) to find GSST more credible than DETC. This is why that won't happen: DETC gives straightforward answers to questions. You prefer a different approach.

Brava, dollink! Brava!

 

One more post I guess.

I have read through your posts over and over again and I just don't get your point or your motives.

Is your critical attitude really appropriate for a minister? Who are you to cast judgment on GSST. “Who are you to judge someone else's servant? To his own master he stands or falls. And he will stand, for the Lord is able to make him stand.” You judged my attempts to clarify the situation and accused me of dishonesty. "Do not judge, or you too will be judged. 2 For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you.”

I never said DETC was lying. I clarified everything I said about GSST seeking accreditation. You have drawn very faulty conclusions. Furthermore, you made a blatant false assumption about my conversations with Ravi Zacharias. How do you know? You said, “These statements about the "core of the program" can only refer to a reading list. A reading list doth not a program make. Anybody can put anybody on a reading list. That scarcely serves to associate Geisler or Zacharias with GSST.” What makes you think they are reading lists? Are you a prophet?

You have violated Scripture in your actions. You have accused GSST and myself of acting badly.

As for my un-accredited degrees, my doctoral program and project was related to the field of theological distance learning. My work is presently being utilized in distance learning and has received recognition from TRACS, DANTES and Oosting and Associates. I have also worked with David Hocking, Ravi Zacharias and Answers in Genesis in developing distance learning curriculum. So in what way do your experiences and credentials relate to distance learning? A degree is only as good as the work you put into it. So your RA degrees do not impress me in and of themselves, what have you done with them?

Again let me clarify my point. GSST was consulting with DETC and working on our self study. This I called "in the process" if my use of the term "in the process" was the wrong term to use then I do stand corrected and apologize for any misleading this may have caused. Dr Graves never said anything different than what I have said. The only way we could describe what we were doing was the say we were "in the process." I do not know how else to say what we were doing. If this was misleading I do sincerely apologize but you can ask many of our students, they were very clear on the issue. Our statement on the web site was never misleading either, that was what we were doing- seeking recognized accreditation. For now DETC is not in the picture. But GSST does have a number of accredited schools that accept our credits including the Federal government for Chaplains. I can not be any clearer. If you find fault in this then I can not help you.

Kenny

 

I am a GSST student, I have an RA undergrad, and working on my MMin. I would like to reiterate that in my discussions (concerning accreditation) with Dr. Graves, he was never unclear, misleading, or less than helpful. He gave me direct answers to direct questions related to DETC and TRACS.

Some of you guys are masters in the art of debate (and I am referring to individuals on both sides of the argument), but I wonder if you realize that in your zealousness to "win an argument", how difficult you make it for folks who are trying to acquire information.

I found this forum about 3 months ago and I am no closer to understanding what constitues a mill (I thought I did, but then someone here stated that ACCS was a mill), how to evaluate utility vs needs, what questions should be proposed to UA instutition, etc.

I struggle with (and admittedly somewhat frightened at) posting criticism with only my second post, but it is has been a bit frustrating.

I would really appreciate it if someone (who has knowledge related to DL and is primarily critical of UA institutions) would send me a PM so that I could ask a few questions and attain some useful information.

Thanks

 

So, now Pastor Kenny is publicly accusing Jimmy Clifton of lying. It is getting harder and harder trying to keep all of this straight. As Dr. Paul Gravers recently joined our forum, perhaps he could shed some light on what he told Jimmy. It would be the proper and gentlemanly thing to do.

 

I seem to remember looking up DETC regulations on making people aware of applications for accreditation.

Websites or promotional material cannot mention any application for accreditation. Correspondence with interested individuals is not mentioned.

With all of the real degree mills and substandard schools out there I have to agree that criticism of legitimate schools in minor areas is pointless.

Yes accreditation is desirable, but every unaccredited school is not without value.