Does CANADA deserve to be whipped by US?

Hell, Dennis, it works (sic) in Detroit.

 

P. S. Now 36% of Canadian's are far from alone in embracing idiocy: Boulder, Colorado's City Council voted 7-2 to oppose War on Iraq (which is a consensus here), joining 42 other US cities and towns. (I am under no illusion that Boulder's opposition stems from anything other than the same ignorant caracature of our US government as 36% of Canadian's do...Stupid is as Stupid does, even in a place--Boulder--where over 60% of the population have bachelor degrees or higher.)

--Orson

 

Re: Re: Re: sorry, I couldn't resist

Yes, thank God for freedom of speech. If we were having this debate in Iraq or Iran, I think we'd both be arrested.

 

Did I say something?

 

Re: Re: Re: Re: sorry, I couldn't resist

Dennis,
Be careful what you say. The PM may one day set up a theme park there.

 

Re: Re: sorry, I couldn't resist

I can't disagree; my problems always stem from the US immigration Nazis' when I come back from Canada!

QUOTE]Originally posted by roysavia
"Whipping Canada" is not an appropriate topic for this forum (any forum). [/QUOTE]

Except, of course, I mean 'whipped' metaphorically, i.e., through strong diplomacy--jawboning for change instead of ignoring our US neighbor to the North.

Why would Canada deserve such "whipping?" For supporting Hezbollah, and coddling other terrorists--for staunchly refusing to join the US in taking simple positions that protect both nations gnaws at Americans: Can we, should we trust you to 'DO The Right Thing?'

What would Canada be thinking and doing if situations were reversed? if Toronto had been devastated instead of New York? and if terrorists entered Canada through the US? and if the US did nothing to halt the threat? It's just too easy and mindless and kneejerk to blame the only surviving super-power ("they deserve this punishment")... WHY the inaction up North? (You see, I am used to thinking better and more positive things of Canadians, too, preferring to laugh at my fellow Americans.)

The risible situation of the Canadian government excoriating Israel and coddling Palestinian terrorists, even after Human Rights Watch has condemned suicide bombing as "criminal" last autumn, simply parallels the inaction that characterizes a morally bereft Ottowa leadership generally regarding terrorism.

I'm sure the fact that a substantial fraction of 9-11 terrorists entered the US through Canada haunts many many Canucks--and that other potential terrorists, such as the Millenial (Al Qaida) bomber cought December 31st, 1999, also came FROM Canada.....Hmmmm?

I think my use of "whipped" as opprobrium in the thread is understandable, grasped in this context of considerations: What Canada doesn't do threatens the US!

--Orson

 

Canada has become far too comfortable and perhaps complacent. It is a wealthy country (rated a few years in a row by the UN as having the highest standard of living in the world when all things are considered). I think this has lead to a sort of hide your head in the sand mentality used by the French and others who do not want to risk anything and hope that conflict just goes away. The problem is that it usually does not and someone has to pay the price. In this case the US is stepping up to the plate as usual. The Canadian military has a proud hisotry of bravery in two World Wars and in service to peace keeping missions but could certainly not protect Canada. On the other hand it is a well paid job. My brother earned more in the Canadian Army as a PVT than I did in the US Army as an E-4.

North

 

Yup. Nunavut with casinos.

 

Re: Re: Re: Re: Does CANADA deserve to be whipped by US?

Or has the US experience of 9-11 just given others nations a friendly "heads up!" warning--a protective assist too conveniently forgotten by the Euro-elites?

E.g., LONDON ducks another terroist attack? Yes!--say Italian authorities:
http://www.thesun.co.uk/article/0,,2003032189,00.html

--Orson

 

Re: Re: Re: sorry, I couldn't resist

QUOTE]Originally posted by roysavia
"Whipping Canada" is not an appropriate topic for this forum (any forum). [/QUOTE]

Except, of course, I mean 'whipped' metaphorically, i.e., through strong diplomacy--jawboning for change instead of ignoring our US neighbor to the North.

Why would Canada deserve such "whipping?" For supporting Hezbollah, and coddling other terrorists--for staunchly refusing to join the US in taking simple positions that protect both nations gnaws at Americans: Can we, should we trust you to 'DO The Right Thing?'

--Orson [/B][/QUOTE]

......And for this reason many Canadians are upset with Jean Chretien and his merry band of clowns in Ottawa.

The government has refused to take such action. Twenty-four years ago CSIS (Canadian Security Intelligence Service), the equivalent of the CIA, was established for the purpose of protecting Canada from terrorist activities. They obviously got caught with "their-pants-down" during the attacks in NYC and Washington, DC. To save face, the government handed the responsibility of screening and investigating suspected terrorists back to the RCMP. We are still waiting for the government to pass adequate anti-terrorist legislation and more effective immigration policies.

 

Orson

5 American invasions of the Canadian colonies after the U.S. declares war and Britain is the bad guy.

America's creation is based on violence, war and hostile aggression. Did America take California and Texas as territories by peaceful means?

Let's explore some more historical reality...Explain "Manifest Destiny" to me...SHOOT!!!

Lets look at the U.S. where private citizens can be declared "enemy combatants" and be put in military tribunals without even knowing the evidence against them. Yes, I trust your democracy.

So much for due process under the law.

Israel is in violation of more U.N. resolutions then Iraq, they have "Weapons of Mass Destruction" and has threatened to use them against enemies with no nuclear capability, yet America has no problem with that. Hmmmmmm.

 

I have nothing against Canadians per se. They're our biggest trade partner in Minnesota, and being so close we travel, vacation, fish and hunt there with ease and frequency. They've always treated us kindly.

But North is correct. Canada has become far too comfortable and complacent. And it kills me when they squawk about the US military machine, the same organization that has allowed them to become so complacent.

Canada claims one of the highest standards of living as pointed out earlier, in large part due to their social programs. They also have a defense system and budget that is pawltry. Imagine what would happen to the social programs in Canada if they were forced to support and field a military force commensurate with their World standing.

And yet some Canadians sit back and criticize the US. Knowing full well that Canadians enjoy the same protection from the US military that Americans do. The Canadian government has no motivation to spend on the military. The US would not for one second allow a threat to Canada, a country with whom we share thousands of miles of border. We would defend Canada nearly as fiercely as we would defend ourselves.

Dennis is right.... If Canada is twisted about the four soldiers lost by US bombs, we apologized, it happens. It's regretable, but it's called the fog of war, and trust me... we've lost more Americans to friendly fire than you can imagine.

We're certainly not in need of Canada's military support in the Iraq situation. What we're seeking is Canada's moral confirmation as a respected Western power in calling wrong, wrong. You can whinnie about Israel and our handling of that situation, but that doesn't in any way make Iraq right in what they're doing. Two wrongs don't make a right. So drop the Euro-elite attitude, stand up and call a spade a spade... Iraq is wrong, they're a threat, supporting world-wide terrorism and a regime that needs to be dismantled.

And for the 36% of Canadians who think the US is the greatest threat to world peace....... it's your opinion and you're free to it. Sleep well tonight, assured that the US military is on the wall and won't let any harm come to you.

Rick, US Marine

 

To Kane the US-hater:

Ask--
Francophone Canadians
First Nations
Louis Riel
the Winnipeg general strikers
victims of the FLQ
those persecuted under the War Measures Act
--if they believe in the innocence of Canadian history.

Now ask adult patriotic Canadians whether they need to believe in that innocence.

 

Hey Rick,
I'm one of the 64% Canadians who thinks otherwise. A few of you have brought this debate to light. The Canadian government, in all its infinite wisdom, has failed to realise that there is a critical relationship between our two countries. Without the U.S. at our door, we'd be unable to protect ourselves let alone provide peace keeping operations in other nations.

As I had mentioned on a previous posting, Canada had the opportunity to build its military to a significant size. We also had the capability of having a nuclear deterent against possible Soviet aggression (we ended up leaving that in the U.S.hands). Our airforce and navy has outdated technology.

For this reason, and others, I have little faith in the Canadian government's ability to handle conflict.

 

Except for short breaks, Quebecers, mostly francophone, have ruled Canada since 1948. I wish Albertans were so persecuted.

The federal government spends $20-30,000 per individual native in programs. Can it ever be enough?

Lois Riel - hung for treason for leading a rebellion in which about 100 people were killed. Need I say more?

Winnipeg General Strikers - ancient history, a blip, only a few died or was that the Regina Riots? Labour unrest happens, When there is no other news, it becomes big news.

Victims of the FLQ - victims were French Canadian, not les mauvaise anglais. Hardly our collective responsibility.

Those persecuted under the War Measures Act - a week or two in jail for people advocating the overthrow of the government by violent means. We really are brutal.

Those convicted of kidnapping and killing spent a very short time in jail, because the the judges, juries and parole officers would have been, you guessed it, French Canadian. Such oppression.

 

Re: Orson

Actually, Texas was a sovereign nation in its own right. Mexico threatened war if Texas was admitted to the US. That led to the war. Texas decided to join, they weren't forced (at least not until after 1865, but thats a different story).

clint

 

I still think that the United States and Canada are very similar. In fact, that similarity is part of what motivates exchanges like this.

My experience with Canada is very positive. When I lived there I liked it, and the Canadians treated me very well. I have family in Manitoba, and they are great. The US is filled with Canadians who get along just fine down here.

I think that in their day to day lives, most Americans don't think of Canada very much. The country is not on the American radar screen very often, unless one lives near the border or is contemplating a vacation.

But Canadians often seem to measure themselves as Canadians by how they compare to this country. Perhaps it's because of the American media penetration of Canada, but the US seems to be very much on the Canadian radar screen.

I mean, just compare Time magazine (US editions) and McLean's. Time can publish an entire issue and never mention the word "Canada" once. But McLean's will be filled with comparative references to the US.

I think that results in Canadians overemphaizing the differences between the US and their country. It's those differences that define their national identity, after all.

So it's an unfortunate fact of life that Canadian nationalism can very easily take the form of anti-Americanism.

Its actually rather surprising how seldom we see this. As I said above, Canadians and Americans really are very fond of one another. That's true even when Americans ignore Canada and take it for granted, and when Canadians are feeling their oats and pointing out all the ways that they think that they are better than us.

My opinon is that it would be healthier all around if Canada developed a little more conventional as opposed to parasitic nationalism, if it *bragged* a little more and learned to *swagger*. Canada needs to learn to be a little more self-centered and self-satisfied, a little more insular. In other words, Canadians need to think about Canada more and about the US less.

Let the other countries compare themselves to Canada for a change.

To make that work, Canada needs to embark on some cool Canadian initiatives that build national pride. It needs to *lead* some endeavors, and not always follow along behind. Canada has an economy the size of Russia's for heaven's sake, it doesn't need to always play Robin to the American (or UN) Batman. It has the resources to stop out of the shadow if it wants to.

I think that a strong self-confident Canada as a partner alongside us is preferable to a weak and resentful Canada that envies us our strength and fails to recognize its own.

 

Bill Dyson

I think I agree with most of what you said.

My father was born in Montana of immigrant parents who had also lived in Wisconsin, Colorado and Kansas.

On my mothers side I am descended from great grandparents who lived in South Dakota and from Ontario residents who came from New England. I could even join the Sons of the American Revolution (damn traitor, my ggggfather).

In western Canada, most of the long-settled population has American ancestry and relatives. We don't live in isolation.

I tend to be conservative and agree with much US policy but by no means is it the norm. Even our conservative parties have to backpedal on conservative issues to have any hope of election. Our conservatives would tend to be more liberal than the US Democrats. Our social programs are here to stay and nobody will touch them. Universal health care - try it, you would like it.

In the United States, the only people without access to health care are the working poor, certainly a group that should be supported. Wealthy people and those with good jobs are insured as are those on welfare. Some day you guys will get it.

 

Dennis, you may agree with some of the points made, but many Canadians do not and you make two comments that are rather tell-tale.

You seem to be a big fan of Canada's socialistic programs, and also bemoan the dismal state of their military.

Take your pick. Unless they raise your taxes even higher, there's only so much revenue to run a country. And every country chooses their priorities. Apparently, Canada has opted for the Eutopian dream of rich social programs at the expense of their military (among others I'm sure).

Could it be that same "everyone deserves something" mentality that prompts the 36% to look the other direction when murderous regimes support world-wide terrorism, just so long as their social comfort isn't upset??

 

For a large part of the American population, illness and death is accompanied by bankruptcy. This makes sense???

Universal health care has been around for 30 or more years and is not even a political issue. Even though it is free to users, the cost is a smaller percentage of the GNP than the American system and our per capita GNP is smaller.

Since our health care is cheaper, we should have more to spend on defence.

Also with any treatment, ones doctor determines the necessity of a procedure as opposed to an insurance company claims manager.

The system is supported by the tax system and is expensive but, to reiterate, at less cost to society overall.