Meeting W/ An NWCU Law Alumni Attorney

Have you considered getting a decent scholarship from an ABA online JD program? For example, if the total tuition is 100k and if you can get half scholarship, then the out of pocket expense is 50k before employer tuition assistance. After about 20k tuition assistance, the net out of pocket is 30k.
Keep in mind that you will not get tuition assistance if you go with NWCU program as the program is not recognized by department of education. You will not even get tax benefit for the tuition paid (I asked that).
Personally, I could not justify a legal education to my employer so employer tuition assistance never came into the calculation. If I could, I would have tried this route. In the case of the DBA, I will be paying 30k more for an AACSB accredited program because of the wider acceptance of AACSB accredited program.

 

If you're in TN, Nashville School of Law offers a TN Bar-approved J.D. program. It costs a little over 40k for the entire program. They have many notable alumni.

"Of the 54 Nashville School of Law graduates who took the Tennessee bar exam for the first time in July 2019, 37 (68.5%) passed, vs. an 80.0% pass rate for the state as a whole."

Not the best but also not the worst.

 

I am not willing to take on a lot of debt for numerous reasons, and short of someone randomly handing out scholarships for good deeds then I cannot expect to get anything. I spent too much time writing scholarship applications before starting my MBA and at this point I know it's not worth my time.

Besides going to school in my current state, in terms of paying full price I have also looked heavily at the UH because of tuition discounts available due to my current location. I tried reaching out to about 5-6 students there. One of them definitely recommended the school, the other told me that one of my other options would be better because that student actually had to regularly email the Dean of the other school to get answers to some of their more difficult questions.

I am in the Southwest. I noticed that the Nashville was recently on a list for best places to live based on cost of living. However, I think I read that California is looking at potentially drastically changing how people are admitted to the state bar, and might decide to go with diploma privilege, an apprenticeship program, or the option for a certain number of required public service hours in lieu of the exam. This could be a major advantage of going with a school in California.

 

An apprenticeship program?? Do you know how such a program would probably look like?

I know any answer to that question would be speculation at this point, but the term apprenticeship program sounds a lot like 'Continental European style' to me.

 

My very vague guess would be working under an active attorney for 2yrs or so before being admitted to the state bar. I suppose for some people this model would work well and for others it wouldn't.

 

Seem like a 4-year process.

HOW LONG DOES APPRENTICESHIP TAKE? About four years. Per the state bar rules, apprentices must study with an experienced attorney or judge for four years before they will be eligible to take the California bar. Review Rule 4.26 (B), available here, for more information.

https://esqapprentice.org/frequently-asked-questions

 

OK, this is very different from the European model. I expected it to be a combination of law degree and apprenticeship, like in some European countries.

 

California already allows people to read the law, which is studying under an attorney in lieu of going to law school. That is what Kim Kardashian is doing. You still have to pass the baby bar and bar exam.

 

There is a Blue Ribbon Commission in California bar working on some alternative paths. If you go to the following link and search for posts by Ray Hayden, you will get a sense on the discussion. It seems the current status is that some sort of exam will still be involved. At the end of the day, the state bar has to limit the number of attorneys and to ensure some minimum quality.
https://www.facebook.com/groups/californiabarexam/

 

There are four states that allow people to read the law: California, Virginia, Vermont, and Washington. New York will allow reading of the law after one year of law school, and Maine will allow it after completing two-thirds of a law program.

 

Here's info on emergency diploma privilege for COVID-19, which is probably over now in the states that implemented it. UBE is supposed to be offered online soon if not already.

https://legal.uworld.com/blog/legal/diploma-privilege/

 

Reading the law, which I am aware of and have a friend who is a Judge in WA that is overseeing a lady doing this now, is separate from what is being proposed by CA in lieu of the traditional bar exam.

I did meet with the attorney who had nothing but great things to say about NWCU. Although, they said like most law schools it will seem too difficult at some point and will make the student want to quit, but to keep pushing through and that getting admitted to the bar in other states was never as problem so far.

New students coming in do not need to be worried about not having their undergrad degree completed. It sounds like it's so common that no one really cares. Once admitted everyone tries to support one another, but finding the right study groups and doing a lot of studying with Fleming's Fundamentals of Law is imperative for success. Fleming himself teaches at the school and numerous of the other teachers are former graduates.

Participation in the forums and live classes seems imperative to making decent grades and can raise most people one to two letter grades. I have generally been told that people going into law school should expect to see their grades drop by at least a letter grade, so this information from the NWCU alumni falls in line with previous information.

Having the webcam on is not imperative during live classes, which can be good for students raising children or people doing chores or other things while in class. I do not have any children, but just sharing what I learned. I was told this student sometimes had their child in their lap even with the camera on and it was not an issue. It sounded very family friendly.

Teachers are difficult but not to the point of being bullies. The teachers are consistent through the years. So a student can expect to have many of the same teachers for multiple classes and form closer relationships with the faculty than at traditional brick and mortar schools.

The cohort the graduate started with was around 300 people, but only about 10% graduated. Students tend to know each other rather well. They also stay in contact via social media.

Also, there is a Facebook group for NWCU students and alumni. It sounds like the administrators turn over the page each year to members of the most recent graduating class. This way new students always have information that is most recent and relevant from alumni who made it through. Looking at Facebook it looks like there were about 1k people in the group, but it's hard to say how many graduated or are active students.

There is no law journal, law review, clinics through the school, or assistance finding a job after graduation. The person strongly suggested just reaching out to local judges and law clerk opportunities, attorneys for internships, and contacting local tribes to get involved with their lay advocacy programs.

In all, I would say I feel significantly more happy about the idea of going to this school. Even if I get admitted to an ABA school I may still choose NWCU for numerous reasons.

 

As someone who graduated earlier this year, I concurred with all the things mentioned above. There is one thing I'd like to add based on my experience. It's a good idea to leverage the free Barbri or Themis lecture materials because some of the NWCU professors do not have the experience and knowledge to explain well some of the difficult concepts (some of them do).

 

Thanks for posting about this! I had asked if they have a bar prep course or what they did to help make sure students pass the bar, because of the recent research study done showing the correlation between the schools that provide bar prep or study supplies and the alumni passing the bar. I was told NWCU did not have bar prep, and they did not mention access to Barbi, only to Flemings Fundamentals of Law. Technically, I do not think that is a huge deal. If a student really wants to they could take that at a different school. I know the local law school here usually offers one that is external from the JD program. I thought Paulina Bandy's (this woman is the epitome of resilience on the bar exam) materials could also be useful, but it looks like she is closing up shop with her materials and bar tutoring. For anyone interested though the archived website is at: http://web.archive.org/web/20220125074107/https://cabarexamrepeatersresource.com/resutrbfe20c.html
I have also been heavily researching NWCU alumni Ray Hayden's website, which I think had the link where I originally discovered that CA was looking for some bar exam alternatives. He has a lot of useful information including on old FYLSX outcomes and test questions. Anyhow, it seems there is more support for passing the FYLSX and bar exam than what I initially was thinking, and I am happy to see other that have struggled show their progress and what eventually works.

Life_learner, do you recall the school allowing people to take any breaks between semesters? Do you get summers off?

I am actually really into the idea of NWCU at this point. I have two other friends also wanting to attend law school, one who want to enroll at the same school and start during the same term. I think she would rather attend a brick and mortar school. Neither of us have had very traditional educations, but I think she is more traditional than I am since she rarely ever even emails or texts and almost always calls instead. I think she likes the idea of being able to just talk to the professor and other students more in person, whereas I have some health issues that make online education appealing even though I would otherwise have wanted brick and mortar.

 

If I recall correctly, it's possible to take around 1 month off between different years (1L, 2L, 3L, and 4L) based on the emails I have. However, you'd want to confirm with them. If longer than that, you'd have to reapply and repay some of the one time expense.

 

Next question, does anyone have a downloaded version of the NWCU handbook that I could take a look at? I have been reading that the school pretty much keeps these under lock and key.

 

Per this post, "copies" don't exist.

https://www.degreeinfo.com/index.php?threads/study-law-online.51736/page-7

 

Not sure about downloadable copy of handbook. They probably only give that to admitted students but you can ask them. The best thing to do is probably list important questions you have and ask around.
Also, there is policies on the book and actual practice. For example, AISOL says they would allow you to repeat exams if grades are not good. However, they don't actually do that.

Law school requires a lot of memorization and fast writing. For example, common law burglary is breaking and entering someone else's building at night time to commit a felony therein. Then there is the definition of breaking, entering (any part of a person's body), night time, etc. On the exam, you'd be given a half page fact pattern, then you'd need to identify all the potential legal issues, write down the legal rules, and then apply the fact pattern to the rule in about 4 page answer in 60 minutes. It's kind of madness.

For NWCU, like the attorney you met mentioned, participated in the online class and post your written answer will be important for your grade. My first year GPA before passing Baby bar was just 1.7 and just over 2.o after I passed the Baby bar (90+% on multiple choice and B for essay so it seems the NWCU professor was pretty harsh for grading. No need to take Baby bar anymore as NWCU now is accredited by the state bar) because I did not participate much in the online class. For 2L - 3L, my GPA was around 3.0, about 0.5 increase due to participation and the other increase due to better study methods (did not waste time reading cases even though they said so. Instead, keep on practicing writing actual past bar or Baby bar exams). For comparison, my GPA at Columbia University was about 3.9 so NWCU grading is brutal, especially 1L.