$250,000 in student debt after 13 years...

I will share my own personal anecdote and then I think I will be done with this thread.

My wife is an attorney who did her undergraduate degree in religion and also earned a master's degree in theology. She works deploying legal software. So, what does that actually mean?

She teaches old lawyers and paralegals basic computing skills, since the software she works on is really easy to use and intuitive. A few days ago, I overheard her explaining how to drop and drag a file from a folder on the computer into the software she was teaching. [Click AND HOLD the left mouse button. This button is the left mouse button...]

The other part of her job is relaying the things that the customers (attorneys and paralegals) want back to the developers so that they can change/improve the program. But, what does that actually mean? My wife learned during her law degree to write in a lawyerly, academic, educated style. In her theology degree, she learned how to write sermons targeting a fourth grade level of comprehension. She says, basically, that she takes the requirements from the clients and dumbs them down (to a fourth grade level or below) and then forwards them to the developers. Other lawyers who have done her job are unwilling or unable to dumb things down enough for the engineers/developers. She likes her job, but says routinely that a fairly intelligent 8th grader could easily do her job. She makes more money than all but the senior-most engineers and developers. She has also been offered, repeatedly, to move into management over engineers and developers, but actually interacting with most of them makes her cry with rage. She has, to this point, declined all such offers.

 

Circa 2008 there was a not insignificant number of employees who didn't sign up for health insurance for the coming year because Obama was going to make it free...

 

I know, or have known, several industry professionals who would never work at a FAANG company. Except, perhaps, for 1-2 years as a resume booster. Some of these have actually worked at a FAANG company in the past and warn people away (for vari0us reasons) if the topic is brought up. FAANG isn't everything. Even if it was, the places are limited and they often get thousands of applications for a single job opening.

 

It is the"prestige" factor like you stated with the resume booster comment. If I am a software developer for FAANG, then I stand a good chance of landing a high paying role with a tech start-up. I see these conversations quite a bit on Reddit and other forums.

 

It's always amazing to me how limited people think college degrees are - "I have a degree in X, so I can only do one or two things as a job when I graduate!" - there are lots of "skills" one could or should have picked up just by completing some higher education that are pretty universal, but like the lack of education about "entrepreneurship" for just about ANY college student - I don't think people are adequately coached about how to talk about the "softer skills" they (should) have developed in college: things like "deadline-driven project management" - that sounds good to a lot of employers, and it just means you got stuff done and turned in on time. I have an eclectic group of friends since I have worked in creative fields and their college degrees have been springboards for them into all kinds of things, I'm not sure why so many feel LIMITED in their options by having a degree in a certain area.
Here are some examples in my own circle of friends:

FRIEND 1: College degree: B.A. in Theater with minor in Philosophy. Profession: After several years as a writer/editor with a large textbook publisher here in Columbus, he started his own freelance business with his wife. She is an educational curriculum consultant and he is a freelance writer and published playwright. (Dramatic Publishing has published two of his plays) They each bring in about 6 figures a year (varies due to freelance work) and have for years and years.

FRIEND 2: College degree: B.A. Art History. Later a Masters in the same. Profession: curates digital images for another large textbook publisher here in Columbus, and manages a small staff and image library. She makes a very good living and has for decades.

FRIEND 3: College degree: Accelerated Bachelor's from FULLSAIL in audio/media production (for profit media college) Profession: After a few years of freelance audio work for video/commercial companies, he had saved enough to build and open his own recording studio. Now he splits his time between composing commercial music, recording bands, VO, and other audio production and doing the occasional freelance production audio gigs. Yes, he makes a good living.

FRIEND 4: College degree: B.A. Theater, minor in Art. Profession: She is an in-demand professional VO (voice over) talent and she owns her own ceramics company with work in various niche shops and online through an Etsy store. She earns enough through these two ventures to support a husband and a son (her husband manages her billing and accounting and does odd job here and there, she is the primary breadwinner) - and they live well.

FRIEND 5: College degree: B.A. American Studies. Profession: After working for some non-profits after college, she got into regional planning and development, working with lobbyists, local municipalities, and non-profits. She parlayed that into working with a high tech welding and manufacturing research firm, which she left to start a 3D printing company - now she is semi-retired at 49 and works when she wants to do further the interests of the 3D printing company...for fun.

FRIEND 5: College degree: Music business. Profession: After working locally as a musician (in three bands at a time usually) a drum teacher (he had 3 or 4 students at a time usually) and working at our local percussion specialty store - my friend parlayed his retail gig into going to NAMM each year and networking with musicians in Nashville (his goal) so when he was ready to relocate he already had a job waiting for him, and he plugged into the Nashville scene. That was 20 years ago. He has worked steadily as a professional drummer all that time. Sometimes teaching, but mostly playing and recording. Like all freelancers he takes an odd job now and then (handyman kind of stuff) just to fill the gaps and stay active. He is married and has a family (two sons) and has made a good living doing what he loves - and it has taken him all over the world!

FRIEND 6: College degree: A.S. Nutrition and B.A. Theater. Profession: After years as a professional theater actor and on-camera talent for commercials and such (and even a small part in a "Hollywood" movie, for which she still receives a check every quarter...not much, but something.) she got burned out on that whole thing and is now managing communications and training initiatives for a local non-profit that works with providers for individuals with developmental disabilities. The pay is not overly exciting, but "fulltime" is only 30 hours a week and she gets time to indulge her other interests and supplement her husband's income (he makes a good living - so it's a good secondary income source)

FRIEND 7: College degree: NONE. ZERO. ZIP. Profession: Entering at the ground floor of an innovative software/service company back in the 90's, my friend taught himself to support their software package and was promoted within the company to a support position, he left that company in the mid 90's and started working with a software company that was specific to the concrete industry. He later left that company to start with a competitor, he has been there for more than 20 years at this point and was their head of support - after doing that for so long, he wanted to get out of the office more and became one of their top sales reps, since he had the knowledge and background about the product. He makes about 6 figures a year (it varies with bonuses, etc) and takes multiple vacations every year, owns a nice, large home and generally has nice things (cars, etc)

I realize that some degrees are very specialized, but there are ancillary skills, ancillary fields, and lots of overlap. Degrees shouldn't be making you feel so limited in your choices. :-(

 

This is the core aspect of a Business Analyst, for those who think they might enjoy it. You collect the requirements from the end-users, translate them into something the developers can understand, and then interface between the two. It pays well and the most advanced tech I use is to make flowcharts, but it also requires strong communication skills.

 

Just another example of people making important decisions based on basically the equivalent of gossip instead of facts.

 

60 percent of student loan borrowers made no payments during the pandemic freeze

https://thehill.com/policy/finance/3506660-60-percent-of-student-loan-borrowers-made-no-payments-during-the-pandemic-freeze/

Very disheartening... I understand that some people really can't afford it. However, for those who can, I think it's a stupid decision not to make payments while the interest rate is 0%. It's not like Joe Biden is going to rescue anyone from their student debt (save for the for profit examples we've seen). The loan will be there waiting when the freeze is over...

Even though I just found the following article, I've had a similar approach to student debt (save more, invest more, and make the minimum payment on my student loan).

Want to get rich? Don't pay off your student loans
https://money.cnn.com/2014/12/11/investing/dont-pay-off-your-student-loans/

 

That's exactly right - student loan debt is highly structured, low interest (compared to other forms of debt, like mortgages or car loans) and it can be deferred or otherwise adjusted IF you need it. There is no reason to be in a hurry to pay off that debt if you have the opportunity to:
1. Invest in something that generates more interest than the interest you are paying
2. Pay off higher interest debt

I'm fully prepared to be responsible for my student loans - but when I think of the billions wasted on other initiatives, with most of that benefit going to huge corporations, i start to think of it as payback - The Iraq war for example, average cost for each citizen...so not for each TAXPAYER, but each citizen was about $6300. Since only about HALF of the population is on the hook for paying taxes at any given point , I bet my individual burden was probably double: $12,600. That doesn't even count 20 years in Afghanistan. If $10K in federal loans are forgiven - I will just say, "Thanks for the rebate" and move on just like corporations, farmers, and lots of other entities do. For the record, I'm not necessarily AGAINST big federal spending as an overall concept, but no one seems to wring their hands about it when contactors and corporations make profits from it, only when it benefits the average citizen personally. :-(

 

Meet a teacher with $303,000 in student debt who says Biden's $10,000 loan-forgiveness plan 'is not even a drop in the bucket' (msn.com)

I just love how these people feel entitled. Nobody put a gun to your head and forced you to incur the debt. Pay your damn student loans!

 

I have more student loans than most but that is because Duke costs me more than it did for my wife to have our (3) kids. Lol that said, I'd do it 10/10 times but I would never expect someone to pay my loans back for me.

 

There should be kind of a rule of thumb about this - if your student debt is more than, say ONE year of your excepted salary, it's a really bad investment. Or TWO years in the case of grad school (since some graduate programs can lead to positions that pay more in the long run, but might not pay off in the short term)

I'm also not cynical about it - college is too expensive, and a $10K reduction across the board for federal loans does not bother me, it would only affect like, 20% of the population, so it's hard for me to see it as a "bribe the voters" scheme, and more like an extension of the extensive aid that was extended to businesses during the pandemic. like I said - no one bats an eye when corporations are bailed out or BILLIONS are lost in wars or other ventures that benefit the few. A 10K reduction would help me get my retirement planning back on track. I would welcome it. But, like I also said - I'm fully prepared to keep paying back what I owe. My loans should be paid off when I am 65 I think.

 

I think something is REALLY wrong with a system where FOUR years of education require a FORTY plus year payback.

Here in Canada, 60 years ago, four years of university tuition cost about the medium price of a new car. $2500 then. Now, it still costs a new car - $30K Canadian $23,800 US.

Nobody gets to pay for 40+ years on a car.... do they?

 

P.S. It's about HALF that price in the Province of Québec. Apprenez le français! (Learn French!) Or you could go to McGill... great school.

 

Most of the time in my life, when I make a decision, I believe I made the best decision I could with the information I had at the time. I have few regrets about doing A instead of B.

One of those rare instances where I was presented with two options and I absolutely picked the wrong one was in 2013, when I was awarded an Explore scholarship (tuition, room and board) at Université Laval to study intensive French over 5 weeks in the summer. Instead, I decided to take summer classes at Trent University Oshawa. Overpriced and underwhelming. I should have gone to Quebec, and I can't even remember why I decided Trent was the right move.

 

I wish my instances were rare -- they have been far from it. But Peterborough is a nice place - I've been there and I'll give it that. Grown an awful lot, though... Toronto influx maybe? You'll get to French, I'm sure. It'll be a real distinction; there can't be that many French-speaking Iowans. Patience, mon ami...