Fetal personhood

Discussion in 'Political Discussions' started by nosborne48, May 5, 2022.

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  1. Johann

    Johann Well-Known Member

    That belongs in the same category as one of my frequent wishes: I look at people I don't like - e.g. Trump, Putin etc - and I have this yearning for retroactive abortion. Suddenly at age whatever, the guy is whoosh - gone. No record. Yeah, I'd love it.

    Unfortunately, your scenario is no more possible than mine.

    You know, there are a couple of prophetic lines of Leonard Cohen, who died in 2016 that have really come home to me lately - in the same song - "Dance Me to the End of Love" One I equate with the Pandemic, that didn't occur till 2020:

    "Dance me through the Panic, till I'm safely gathered in."

    The other seems to have some relation to this thread:

    "Dance me to the children who are asking to be born"

    Leonard knew a lot of stuff. Here's the whole thing. we need something beautiful about now.

    Dance me to your beauty with a burning violin
    Dance me through the panic till I'm gathered safely in
    Lift me like an olive branch and be my homeward dove
    Dance me to the end of love
    Dance me to the end of love
    Oh, let me see your beauty when the witnesses are gone
    Let me feel you moving like they do in Babylon
    Show me slowly what I only know the limits of
    Dance me to the end of love
    Dance me to the end of love
    Dance me to the wedding now, dance me on and on
    Dance me very tenderly and dance me very long
    We're both of us beneath our love, we're both of us above
    Dance me to the end of love
    Dance me to the end of love
    Dance me to the children who are asking to be born
    Dance me through the curtains that our kisses have outworn
    Raise a tent of shelter now, though every thread is torn
    Dance me to the end of love
    Dance me to your beauty with a burning violin
    Dance me through the panic till I'm gathered safely in
    Touch me with your naked hand or touch me with your glove
    Dance me to the end of love
    Dance me to the end of love
    Dance me to the end of love
     
    Last edited: May 7, 2022
  2. Johann

    Johann Well-Known Member

    It's OK Maniac. I read your other post. I know where you were going, now. Sorry.
     
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  3. Maniac Craniac

    Maniac Craniac Moderator Staff Member

    Well, I just realized I got mixed up with which post that quote was from, so that's my fault, actually. Doh!
     
  4. Rich Douglas

    Rich Douglas Well-Known Member

    The collective wisdom is almost always superior to the individual's. That is why despots hate democracy.

    If I showed you a picture of a rhino and asked you how much it weighed, chances are your answer will be off, perhaps far off. Ask a thousand people, though, and go look at the median answer, and it will be really close.

    This is why we have a populace in favor of so many so-called "liberal" positions when, in reality, they represent the consensus--and a conservative power bloc doing everything it can to prevent that majority from expressing itself.

    America is much more liberal than the split between the two factions indicate. It is not a level playing field, by any means.
     
  5. Maniac Craniac

    Maniac Craniac Moderator Staff Member

    The checks and balances in our government don't just limit the power of individuals in office, but are also deliberately designed to prevent the tyranny of the majority.

    You did say "almost always," but you still come dangerously close to an argumentum ad populum. Except in a few particular instances, such as guessing quantities in relatable scales, collective wisdom has historically had next to no correlation to what is actually right. Cognitive biases. Logical fallacies. Our brains are not programmed to find what is right, especially in the abstract.
     
  6. Johann

    Johann Well-Known Member

    I find the current climate around this subject in the US to be predominantly ugly and evil. Including some posts on this forum.

    (1) Louisiana's latest.
    (2) Justice Alito's reiterating old, false accusations about Margaret Sanger and the purported attempt to limit or even exterminate the Black Population.
    (3) Texas's idea of going after Texans who go to other states to seek abortions legal there.
    (4) The flippancy and superciliousness of some of what passes for "reasoning" here. I name no names.
    (5) The allusions here to the high rate of abortions among Blacks, as if it signified wrongdoing. Abortions go up where poverty is. And yes, there's a high rate of family breakdown. Why do you think that is? All sorts of reasons, many to do with poverty. And THAT has myriad root causes.
    (6) What Rachel discovered about proposed miscarriage legislation. That's just crazy. More than Salem-Crazy. Worse than McCarthy crazy. Worse, even than Trump-crazy.

    Well, that's it then. I'm not American so I'll just leave this ugly, evil US business with three words I've said before: Let women decide.
    ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    I tried, but it's now obvious that I made a big mistake coming back here. Don't look for me in 2023 or subsequent. I have a lot of things to do and learn that are not ugly at all. No place for me here.
     
    Last edited: May 7, 2022
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  7. Maniac Craniac

    Maniac Craniac Moderator Staff Member

    I was pointing out a double standard. Maybe not one that you hold, but none of the above has anything to do with the point I was making.

    I have no idea if you'll ever read this, but I hope you don't actually leave. This place is much better with you here than without.
     
  8. Rich Douglas

    Rich Douglas Well-Known Member

    I'm talking about polling, not some subjective biases.
     
  9. nosborne48

    nosborne48 Well-Known Member

    Do read the draft. There might be some interesting hints in there. For instance, Alito says at least twice that his abortion reasoning should not be applied to other personal rights the Supreme Court has declared such as contraception and same sex marriage. Now Alito doesn't actually believe that. He has applied his two part test to those things in other opinions and found the same abuse of power as he finds here. So why all the reassurance? Possibly because he can't get a majority to sign on without mouthing this meaningless dicta. Could be that there won't be a majority after all!
     
  10. JoshD

    JoshD Well-Known Member

    I avoid these threads because I fear my personal beliefs being used against me in my professional life. You never know who is going to be lurking and get their feelings hurt to the point of trying to ruin ones career.

    I chime in to tell folks to be mindful of the words they use on a public forum. The last thing you want is a vengeful person coming after your livelihood.
     
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  11. JBjunior

    JBjunior Active Member

    As a Duke alumnus you already have enough to worry about. :cool: ;)

    - Lifelong UNC Fan
     
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  12. Stanislav

    Stanislav Well-Known Member

    A person applying this standard should be way to the left of Bernie on environment, healthcare access, healthcare, and pretty much every socioeconomic issue. But most pro-lifers are not. Funny how THAT works.
    Also, I don't think there is good data showing depriving women of bodily autonomy actually saves lives. I suspect there are better ways to save lives, even of the unborn, than that.
     
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  13. Bill Huffman

    Bill Huffman Well-Known Member

    The USA is in a pathetic position when it comes to caring for our pregnant women. Many times worse than we should be and Republicans apparently want to make it even worse by outlawing abortion, in some cases even if it is necessary to save the life of the woman.

    quote:
    Overall pregnancy-related mortality in the United States occurs at an average rate of 17.2 deaths per 100,000 live births. Leading causes of death include cardiovascular conditions, hemorrhage, and infection. However, in the Netherlands, Norway, and New Zealand, that rate drops to 3 or fewer women per 100,000.
    US Ranks Worst in Maternal Care, Mortality Compared With 10 Other Developed Nations
    https://www.ajmc.com/view/us-ranks-worst-in-maternal-care-mortality-compared-with-10-other-developed-nations
     
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  14. Maniac Craniac

    Maniac Craniac Moderator Staff Member

    I'm evolving on all these issues and may one day have something meaningful to say about them. But I still give your post a big, fat nope. I don't for a second believe that socialism ("left of Bernie") saves lives. I absolutely don't accept the premise that disagreeing with leftist policy means that one does not care about an issue or the people affected by it. If you propose a bad solution that doesn't fix [the environment, healthcare, education, etc.] and does way more harm than it could ever have done good, then I am right to decry your proposition and am not anti-[environment, healthcare, education, etc.] for doing so.
     
  15. Stanislav

    Stanislav Well-Known Member

    Universal health coverage will, without a shadow of a doubt, save lives of people dying every year of preventable diseases. It's blindingly clear. Just fixing comparatively high newborn and maternal mortality rate has potential to save thousands. But here is the big picture argument: if you are a right to life fundamentalist, it is easy to come up with ways to prevent people from dying by pouring money and resources on it. So let's raise taxes; surely it is less of a burden that forcing women to carry every pregnancy to term and bear all health, social, economic, and personal costs for that. So yeah, maybe not actual "socialism" (which is not what Bernie publicly advocates, and which is not shown to, um, work), but pretty extensive social democracy to the left of any actual policy proposals should be your position.

    Just thought of it: even "universal access to food" should be a moral choice under your test. Don't born people have right to life?
     
  16. Maniac Craniac

    Maniac Craniac Moderator Staff Member

    At the risk of repeating my previous posts verbatim, I'll just try to simplify. "Everyone gets healthcare" and "everyone gets food" are not policies. Disagreeing with any policy that purportedly aims to have such a result does not make me anti-healthcare and anti-food. If you have a solution that actually works, does not do more harm than good, does not violate anyone's rights, then I'm all ears.

    As for the rest of your post, that's not how right to life works. If I'm falling off the edge of a cliff, bystanders have the right to not intervene. The fact that I have a right to life does not mean I have the right to be saved.

    That's not to say that it's morally right for others to refrain from saving me, if saving me is possible. Two different things.

    Lastly, I object to being called a fundamentalist of any sort. This has been going on for years now- you constantly trying to pin me in a box, getting it wrong, and expecting me to defend the box you put me in.
     
  17. Stanislav

    Stanislav Well-Known Member

    Anti-abortion policy from right to life perspective sounds like "the government should intervene in someone's bodily autonomy in order to preserve right to life". Unless we pretend that right to property or bogus "right to low taxes" is above people making choices regarding their own bodies, leftist polities then become moral imperatives.

    Also, any policy that would use the power of state to guarantee everyone food and healthcare would be left of Bernie. This is actually my big substantial problem with Bernie and, even moreso, Bernie-bros - they make adherence to ALL of their detailed policy prescriptions a moral issue. Like when Bernie web lemmings accused Warren of treason when she proposed getting to universal coverage in two steps rather than just enacting Medicare For All (C) (TM). I think single payer is a better policy, and I still think that was political malpractice - not to mention, dishonest. Just like pretty much all of his attacks on Hillary. Screw Bernie Sanders.
     
  18. Maniac Craniac

    Maniac Craniac Moderator Staff Member

    I have the right to extend and contract my index finger all day, everyday. That's bodily autonomy. I do not have the right to put a loaded gun in my hand, point it at another human being and make the exact same motion of extending and closing my index finger. As the saying goes "your rights end where mine begin" and as such, the issue of bodily autonomy of a pregnant women is a begging the question fallacy. Either the fetus has a right to life or it doesn't. That's the only issue that matters. If, and only if, the fetus does not have the right to live, then I will concede that it is a matter of bodily autonomy and leave it at that.
     
  19. Stanislav

    Stanislav Well-Known Member

    I have the right to live. I do not have the right to live inside your body. Doesn't it make life easier if you can ignore little details like these?
    Also, abortion is bad. It's a religious position I'm not prepared to argue against as a Catholic. This doesn't mean we should campaign for the State to force everyone to adhere to this religious truth.
     
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  20. Bill Huffman

    Bill Huffman Well-Known Member

    I'm not going to pretend that I have a law written and ready to go or even that I would be capable of writing a law that would do what you say. It would not even be practical to undertake such an activity here because we're not a legislature trying to make such a law. Therefore, saying something like "healthcare should be right not a privilege" is a reasonable thing to post, IMHO. I know that it is possible because that is the way it works in all other "wealthy" countries, except here in the USA. I know that we can afford it as a society because we spend far more on healthcare here per capita than in other country in the world. There would be a few different ways to accomplish that goal. I'm not sure which would work best.
     
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