Disadvantages of DL

Discussion in 'General Distance Learning Discussions' started by Bill Grover, Nov 15, 2002.

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  1. Bill Grover

    Bill Grover New Member

    I am now in my second year of DL and have several degrees and credentials from B and M institutions as well. Being in a mood today, I'd like to share perceptions from my DL experience:

    1) Doing it at home can be lonely. In my case those at home do not even understand what I am doing (eg thesis topic) , and probably don't care much. A possible disadvantage of DL is lack of support from fellow students. It would be wise for one considering DL to acquire channels of support among friends or family or school.

    2) Doing it home can be distracting. Sure I tell everyone that they must allow me some time to study. But phones ring, televisions blare, dogs have to go out, kids argue, wife wants attention, da da, da da, da da, da da! Just try to read and comprehend Gregory Nazianzen's Orations or decide if harpagmos is concessive or causative with these interruptions. One must plan a time and place.

    3) Doing it at home can be more work. Were I surrounded by seminarians I could get an answer post haste, "Say , what's the function of an articular infinitive again?" But here I sit surrounded by my piles of books and must peruse them to know! Like a precious metal facts are acquired by digging.

    4) Doing it at home can be a test of one's resoluteness . I really did not want to study today. Yeah, a journey begins with one step, but I'm on step 19 and have 2, 694 steps to go. That's a long way! Is it worth it? Why not take up a hobby instead? Before DLers begin maybe they should access their determination. You know, my life would not end were I to not finish. (these are not my real thoughts).

    5) Doing it at home requires self direction. Yes, UZ provides a Supervisor but I am expected to function independently. ACCS provides course guidelines, but I cannot call the school every day for clarification. In a real way DL is like hacking your own path through an Amazon jungle.

    But, I still like DL! The disadvantages make the learning mine in a way it would not be mine were the disadvantages not there. But one should not suppose DL will be easier!
     
  2. Homer

    Homer New Member

    I recall the days where I could simply conjure up a hypo, present it in class, and immediately receive a reasonable answer from the prof or a student. In the event a student volunteered to address the issue, the prof was right there to correct any and all erroneous information and/or unwarranted presumptions.

    Well, no longer. Now, I'm forced to figure it out myself which, depending upon the particular issue, can take infinitely longer (as in 48 hours v. 48 seconds). Of course, I can always present the hypo on the class board but then more than half the time I wind up figuring it out on my own before getting an answer (i.e. forget about instant gratification).

    Further, there's the honor code issue; it's actually =worse=. I don't know about any other institutions but I can neither answer e-mail concerning assignments or exams nor send any requesting another students thoughts on the matter. This did not present much of a problem when I was wondering around the school library or in the cafeteria and a particular assignment or exam that was imminent just sort of came up naturally in conversation.
     
  3. Christopher Green

    Christopher Green New Member

    Can I add???

    Can I add to this Bill?

    I just have a perception and I'd be interested in seeing what others think.

    I don't think you "make the connections" when you do DL. At least not as many, or not as well. The network of people we know for getting a job is often just as important as the degree.

    Many of us do DL just because we don't have the regular B&M luxury. That's why I'm doing it now and I'm much more interested in it. But making many professional connections and deepening those relationships is a luxury that doesn't come as easy over cyberspace. If you don't understand how I feel at this point, you can't download it. There is a lot more to my professional growth than meets the page.

    Chris
     
  4. Bill Grover

    Bill Grover New Member

    Re: Can I add???

     
  5. Christopher Green

    Christopher Green New Member

    sounds cool.

    sounds like that would have been a stellar class, Bill.

    Although I'm not working on a PhD, living in bakersfield gives one a similar feeling~~~regardless!!! Except, instead of shivering at the north pole, its like I'm trudging through the desert, one begrudging step after the other, the winded sand piercing my post-seminary face (what does that look like???)... being hit by giant tumbleweeds every other moment, and no solace except the gleaming mirage ahead of me...

    (MIRAGE): Chris stumbles upon a large dispensing machine. It says, "Bear's Guide: You can live in Bakersfield and still get a good degree somewhere else!"

    Chris looks at the selection:

    ThM~~ICC/U. of Aberdeen. Looks good. In fact, if he can get a teaching job, he might just fly to scotland to do this over the summers.

    MA English~~Indiana U. of Pennsylvania or UCal. Irvine. Chris ponders what possibilities would be open for him if he did this.

    PhD Theo~~Chris is continually pondering doing a PhD and skipping all this fuzz with other masters degrees.

    Excelsior~~Chris decides to get another BA at Ex. so he can market himself better in the highschools here. The idea gets better as he thinks about it. It will only take three CLEPS and five courses!!!

    Chris reaches into his pocket for two quarters. He has one in his right pocket. elation. His left pocket only contains sand and dirt.

    Chris clamors in the sand for a second quarter.

    Weeks pass.

    Chris emerges from the sand with a second quarter. Victoriously (with Buck Owens playing softly in the background) he smiles.

    Financial aid had to come from somewhere.
     
  6. David Williams

    David Williams New Member

    Re: Can I add???

    Chris - Yours is an interesting point; I agree wholeheartedly. Mentoring and networking, two components I found very important in my B&M studies, are unfortunately lacking. I've also discovered that I haven't received any exposure to the culture of the discipline I'm studying (IT).

    David
     
  7. Christopher Green

    Christopher Green New Member

    Just one more thought

    Thanks for pondering my point, David. I'd just like to add one more thought.

    Being exposed to a culture, mentoring, networking, etc... these are all things that most people think they are looking at when they parouse your resume. In fact, one's learning experience may not have any of these components at all~~~because of the proliferation of DL options.

    I think the culture of technological speed as a means of achieving the degree is what we get instead when we do DL. So the "cultural experience" that is behind someone's degree, whatever that degree appears to be on a resume, may be radically different than a hiring employer's expectations.

    Is the use of DL options deceptive in this sense? No. It's not a misrepresentation of something that is not true. One does, in fact, hold "such and such" a DL degree. But when we do DL we may easily, and quite often, capitolize (sp?) on the ignorance of others.

    Chris
     
  8. Homer

    Homer New Member

    Re: Just one more thought

    I'm not sure how to take the aforementioned statement. In one sense, it implies that DL is an inferior modality. In another, it implies that those who may ultimately rely upon such information are somehow unable (i.e. too ignorant) to obtain infomation requisite to make an informed decision. In that regard if a potential employer, for example, has sufficient interest it should be a relatively simple matter, absent active concealment, to determine the method of delivery. Or am I way off base?
     
  9. Bill Grover

    Bill Grover New Member

    Perhaps what Chris is alluding to, though I always see things though my own narrow theological eyes, is that were one to do a B/M doc much interaction with profs and peers likely attends this state and the ecosystem of that environment just oozes culture into that fortunate scholar. Somehow, my quarterly emails from my SA Super which I receive here in the unstimulating, at least in the right ways, environ of the old homestead fall far short of that enviable B/M opportunity.

    So Chris (to be) Doc Grover will prescribe a remedy: I understand Grudem, past Theo guy at TEDS, now runs Phoenix Seminary. So, tell your spouse that (to be) Doc Grover has prescribed for you frequent pilgramages to said seminary where you can soak up all that culture no doubt dripping from that place:D :D :D
     
  10. levicoff

    levicoff Guest

    Severel years ago, in th earlier days of a.e.d. (the alt.education.distance newsgroup, which preceeded degreeinfo.com), I posited the theory that a credible graduate program must have a residential component. Not necessarily a long one, but enough residency experiences within a program to preclude it from being a "lone ranger" experience.

    At the time, I recall someone opining that his M.A. program at Vermont College (then of Norwich University) wa a lone ranger experience because it lacked the interaction of his B&M bachelor's program. I felt the opposite, having done my B.A. at TESC, in which I had some in-person interaction with my faculty advisors but not with any students. To me, in comparison, V.C. was a god-send. Thus, I recognize that the concept of interaction is subjective to a degree.

    But Bill G. touches on several of the issues that do impact education, especially at the graduate level. At that point, we are learning to be leaders, not followers. We are no longer regurgitating facts, but learning to practice critical thinking and, at the doctoral level, scholarship per se. ("Making an original contribution to the body of scholarly literature," and all that.) No longer regurgitating, but actually processing.

    And that requires interaction - more than one can get in an interactive forum, a discussion forum, or any medium other than people sitting in the same room and engaging in dialogue and discourse. (Theologically-oriented types will also recognize a need for accountability, part of developing one's own leadership role.)

    Those who have been through programs such as the V.C. Graduate Program or the Union doctoral program tend to value their time in colloquia, seminars, peer days, etc., more than anything else in their program, save for the intrinsic ability to create your own program in the first place. Thus, as well designed as I consider, say, the M.A. in Humanities at CSUDH (or similar programs that are totally external), they still lack one thing: the ability to interact with peers and faculty.

    The program I am currently enrolled has a counterpart in my own area at Penn State University. But the Penn State program is totally external. For that reason, I've chosen to schlep some 500 miles to a college in Canada, where I have the opportunity to occasionally sit down with other students in order to have peer interaction in a class environment. I can still do the bulk of my work at home or on the road, but the residencies add the component that makes the program that much more credible. They are more than the icing on the cake, they are part of the cake itself.

    They are also the added kick I need for motivation, since I find the same excuses as Bill not to do the work. Motivation, for example, to finish reading the two books I need for next week's course (which I haven't picked up since last week), motivation to write the paper for another course I'm taking so I can hand-deliver it next week on campus instead of having to mail or fax it, etc.

    Ah, hell, what am I saying . . . I'm really just going so I can buy some sweat shirts . . . :D

    There is one final factor . . . I've always wanted to say, "I went to . . . " rather than simply, "I got my degree from . . . " Unless one actually schleps to UNIZUL, for example, it hardly seems accurate to say, "I went to UNIZUL." I can actually say that I went to TESC, I went to Nowich, I went to Union, etc. I sat down at those places and pow-wowed with others, engaged in academic discourse on campus, sat under trees there (nothing beats the Commons outside College Hall at V.C., even if it was just to laugh at the New Agers doing their "Salute the Sun" schtick at six in the morning) and engaged in bitching with others about tuition, policies, faculty eccentricities, and baseball, etc., and made friendships that last even today. Oh, yeah, and bought sweat shirts . . .

    There is, indeed, such a thing as a college or grad school experience, and one just doesn't get it all by sitting at a desk in the den.
     
  11. Professor Kennedy

    Professor Kennedy New Member

    Selective nostalgia?

    Levicoff: "and engaged in bitching with others about tuition, policies, faculty eccentricities, and baseball, etc., and made friendships that last even today. Oh, yeah, and bought sweat shirts . . ."

    Nostalgia ain't what it used to be. Campus life, much like any enforced residence with others in the same boat (army, navy, scouts, junior executive programmes, Woodstock, an anti-anything demonstration) brings all of these things we might have experienced at Uni. But time obliterates memories of the bad experiences, the being victims of others' mocking or ridicule, the hatreds that took root and live on today, the shameful things done to and we did to others, the moments of truth about what we were praised for and what deserved to be praiseworthy and all the hours rubbish we talked and what was truly profound - and lingering memories of the campus suicides because the campus or some of those on it let them down in some private way.

    I think we can exaggerate the importance of campus life, particularly when passed 25. For thousands of people there can be no campus life - two weeks residence is poor time to share in myths of the selective nostalgia of one's youth. DL is stand alone - it is not a theme park for itinerant visitors. For those who face the alternative of no degree, dl is an answer. It requires massive commitment, hard work and determination to complete.
    Stuff the tee-shirts.
     
  12. Homer

    Homer New Member

    Perhaps this is really dependent not only upon one's prior experience, but the discipline as well. I wouldn't trade my traditional undergrad experience for anything. Ditto with respect to a traditional J.D. program.

    I can't say the same about my LL.M. experience (which I decided to can about halfway through). That was nothing more than students charging in to evening classes looking like they had been repeatedly punched in the face during the day (including myself) and then scampering out in order to get home in time to brush their teeth before passing out. Consequently, not only do I feel as if I'm not missing a whole heck of a lot doing DL, I'm actually experiencing more interaction than I ever did during my traditional LL.M. program.
     
  13. levicoff

    levicoff Guest

    Re: Selective nostalgia?

    Sounds like the good professor had some bad experiences in his college life. Quel dommage.

    But perhaps the obvious point is missed here . . . I never stated that residencies in a nontraditional program are intended to duplicate the millieu of living on a campus. In seminars and colloquia, we do not get to experience food fights, toga parties, panty raids, drug nights, schtupping 100 people into a VW Beetle (or whatever was done in the good professor's day), etc. The DL crowd tends to be more mature, both in years and in mindset, than their traditional undergraduate counterparts. The discussions tend to be more program-oriented, but we do not neglect the social either. (I can think of one guy who showed up at a V.C. colloquium with full stereo set-up and several cases of beer. He had come to party and, to my knowledge, he ended up with only himself to party with. On the other hand, music night was a hoot, and I wouldn't be surprised if a few people were toking some weed before they came into it. And yes, there was even sex occasionally between semniar participants . . . )

    The goals to residency experiences in DL, then, are to (1) actually have in-person interaction with peers and faculty for the purpose of processing one's learning, and (2) to get to hang out with peers and faculty in a social environment.

    And, whether the good professor likes it or not, to buy sweat shirts (or tee-shirts). Which, I gladly admit, is subjective on my part. :D
    _____________________

    . . . gleefully anticipating my shopping spree at the campus bookstore next week.
     
  14. Professor Kennedy

    Professor Kennedy New Member

    Levicoff: "Sounds like the good professor had some bad experiences in his college life. Quel dommage."

    Oh, dear, my friend misses the point so badly. You see, some of us have never left the 'campus'. Unlike most of our contemporaries, a few of us remained after our bachelor degrees, while they, like Levicoff, I assume, and others who wax lyrical and nostalgically about the short time they spent there in the first blush of their youth, went away to the wider world.

    They think back to the days of decades ago, while we who never left look back only to last Friday, and all the days before that, since our first graduations. It sure gives you a sobering perspective of what the 'joys of campus life' were really like. And, it has nothing to do with anything that happened to us in those dreamy days.

    Some years ago, about twenty after graduation, the 'gang' had a re-union. Somewhat boozy, definitely noisy, and above all weird. Two of the 14 of us had become academics; the rest held various jobs in industry, services, government and voluntary. What struck me was that the two of us who had the better academic records as Bachelor students were different from the rest, and not just because we were the lowest paid (except for the voluntary worker), we had nothing in common to talk about the 'great' days of campus life. The others were rattling on with story after story about what we had all got up to as students but even when the stories included us, it all seemed so silly and trivial.

    They saw university has a series of raucous laughs - I saw it as a sequence of courses, other new students each term - much as we must have seemed to the then faculty - meetings, examinations (no longer sitting them but grading them) and graduations of each cohort, and knowing the individual stories behind each graduate's success or failure or disappointment. I saw a constant cycylical repetition of long lines of people being 'educated' and thinking their 'fooling around' was somehow unique.

    I won't go on as I think you get the message. So, please Levicoff, save your 'what a shame' for someone who needs your sympathy.

    I was trying to make a serious point about the exaggerated importance of the 'Campus', not about any 'bad' experiences I had there then, or have had in the many years since. Tomorrow, Monday, I return to the campus, as I have done for thirty years. The only joy is that I work every day there to service 8,000 of our dl MBA students who mostly don't see it, except for the 600 hundred a year who come to it for the first time to graduate MBA. I hope I never kid them that they 'missed something important' by having to undertake their MBAs without the mythical 'blessings' of campus life.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Nov 17, 2002
  15. Homer

    Homer New Member

    Re: Re: Selective nostalgia?

    With all due respect.......been there, done that, no longer have such needs.

    I completely understand where certain students might desire, or even need, such in-person interaction. However, I still maintain that it depends upon the particular program and, perhaps, age and career position.

    I mean, I've attended a few seminars (similar to short residencies, sans t-shirts and sex) with a bunch of tax attorneys and it ain't exactly what I would call an enriching experience. I believe the reason is attendees deal with the stuff on a daily basis (nightly, too) and, thus, really don't feel like spending any "free time" discussing shop. As for the lectures, I've always gotten more out of reading the material handed out at the seminars.
     
  16. Christopher Green

    Christopher Green New Member

    Thanks Homer. I meant to imply the latter, that an employer may be ignorant of the DL option, that it was the route taken instead of the B/M track. Employers may not ask, but just assume something was done B/M. In this scenario it is the responsibility of both to be honest. If the employer wants a person with a B/M experience, he or she should ask. However, at times this may be assumed and the issue may never come up.

    Is the person who is being considered for a position, at that point, responsible for misrepresentation for not actively speaking up in the first place, "hey-I actually did this via DL!" I don't think so, personally. There is nothing illegal or specifically false about a resume that doesn't say "distance learning" on it. However, employers don't actively seek people who have done methodical DL either. In the public eye, DL still gets a much worse rep than it should.

    Is it smart to get a degree that says, "this is a distance learning degree" on it? No one in their right mind would do that. At times people recognize this immediately, say, if someone sports a degree from UoP. As for the vast majority, however, DL degrees on the bachelors and masters level may not loudly purport to be DL. Why? My suspicion is that employers will not as actively pursue those candidates (who have done methodical DL).

    If my (huge) generalization is true~~~and in this case I think it is~~~then people who do DL need to be honest that he/she did, in fact, get the degree via DL. However, he/she needs to follow up and say, "this was a hard degree to obtain" or whatever. That would improve the rep. of DL for us all. Some people are shy of telling the "whole truth," I think, to avoid getting any chinks in thier armor.

    We (DL-ers) have no control of the assumptions of others. At the same time, it has never been customary to present learning modality on a resume. To mention that would be a negative point at the outset because it would say "easy degree." That would be a false message, too. So my advice is to state minimally what the degree is, and where from on a resume. Then one should be very open in person, not only about the content-delivery method, research method or whatever, but also the level of difficulty. This would help us all.

    Chris
     
  17. Homer

    Homer New Member

    You made some excellent points, Chris, and I agree with virtually everything you stated.

    I suppose I tend to imagine scenarios where employers would have to be pretty obtuse =not= to realize that certain degrees were done via DL. I mean, assume you were interviewing an applicant who lived and worked in your general location and happened to have an H-W MBA. Even if you were clueless about H-W, you'd have to realize that working full-time in CA while commuting to class in Scotland would be a pretty neat trick and would prompt the obvious question.

    On the other hand, as you point out, some scenarios may be considerably less clear (e.g. a DL Kelley MBA interviewing for a position in Indianapolis).
     
  18. Frangop

    Frangop New Member

    3) Doing it at home can be more work. Were I surrounded by seminarians I could get an answer post haste, "Say , what's the function of an articular infinitive again?" But here I sit surrounded by my piles of books and must peruse them to know! Like a precious metal facts are acquired by digging.


    @@@@@@


    Indeed, DL is (unreasonably) hard work. As a DL student for more than 10 years I have discovered that a 1 hour face-to-face lecture/tutorial is equivalent to 3 hours of DL solo reading. Traditional humans learn through interaction – lets not confuse “education” with “meditation” ;-)

    So the question still remains – yes, DL is Convenient, but is it Effective and Efficient?

    CFr
     
  19. Homer

    Homer New Member

    Effectiveness of DL, I think, is dependent upon the student and instructor. Some students can't seem to learn in the absence of face-to-face lectures and real-time interaction with other students. For others, the mode of delivery isn't all that critical. Instructors, of course, have the ability to completely negate any advantage the traditional classroom might otherwise have by spending a substantial amount of time relating war stories and/or being consistently sidetracked by trivia (the latter, at times, being initiated by certain students (who, perhaps not coincidentally, also seem to enjoy the war stories)).

    For me, DL is efficient. I estimate that the additional time I have to spend filling gaps is less than the time I would spend commuting to a traditional classroom. Further, for many (including myself), it's a fairly simple choice; DL or nothing. Although I typically have a block of free time on any given day it isn't always on Thursday night from 7-9, for example.
     
  20. Bill Grover

    Bill Grover New Member

    Re: Re: Disadvantages of DL

     

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