So what's better????..........

Discussion in 'Accreditation Discussions (RA, DETC, state approva' started by Cody Thompson, May 27, 2019.

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  1. Cody Thompson

    Cody Thompson Member

    So what's better for academia, writing and the professional world: a "professional" doctorate from an RA school online, or a "research" doctorate from an NA school??

    All based on the USDE's "research" degrees list, though I realize it isn't the be all/end all...
     
  2. Kizmet

    Kizmet Moderator

    Unless I’ve missed something, DEAC is only allowed to offer professional doctorates. There are no DEAC research doctorates.
     
  3. Ted Heiks

    Ted Heiks Moderator and Distinguished Senior Member

    I don't think there's any such thing as an NA research doctorate. DEAC (formerly DETC) is limited to accrediting professional doctorates.
     
  4. LearningAddict

    LearningAddict Well-Known Member

    You may find some DEAC schools with doctoral degree programs that have a research component, but that of course is not the same thing.

    In any case, it will be tough to gain traction in academia with only an NA doctorate. You'll likely need an RA masters under that, which means in most cases it will be the RA masters that got your foot in the door. The only exception is when you're in a situation where you already have an RA masters and need a doctorate of any accreditation to get ahead and then in that case the NA doctorate can get you over the hump. Sadly, I've also seen fake diploma mill doctorates get people over the hump in that situation too many times, but that's another discussion.
     
  5. Cody Thompson

    Cody Thompson Member

    Doctor of Science is a research degree. A few NA places offer them. An EdD is also research based (again, based on the USDE list).
     
  6. Jonathan Whatley

    Jonathan Whatley Well-Known Member

    This question needs to be more specific as to what degrees from what schools, and it would help to be more specific as to what role in "academia, writing, and the professional world." It's somewhat like asking what vehicle is better for a courier and limo business, a Toyota or a Ford.
     
  7. Kizmet

    Kizmet Moderator

    "Provides students with confidence that the institution offering programs, ranging from high school through the professional doctoral degree and non-degree certificates, have been evaluated and meet rigorous standards established by education industry professionals"

    https://www.deac.org/UploadedDocuments/2016-Handbook/2016-DEAC-Accreditation-Handbook.pdf
     
  8. JoshD

    JoshD Well-Known Member

    Honestly, for academia, a doctoral degree from a brick and mortar university is going to be of much more benefit that one from an online university. Do people get professor positions at universities with doctoral degrees from online schools? Sure. However, academia is competitive so I would say that neither are particularly ideal for someone looking to move that direction.
     
  9. Kizmet

    Kizmet Moderator

    There's little doubt that Josh is right. But most of the people who find themselves on DegreeInfo don't actually have access the traditional B&M model.
    There aren't a lot of those jobs around and when one comes open there's lots of competition. The stigma of an online degree isn't going to help you in that competition but if you've got no choice then you just have to take your best shot and maybe that involves an online PhD. It's a tricky thing because I find myself wanting to point out that highly committed people do a much better job of reaching goals. At the same time I think it's prudent to have a Plan B such as "What could I do with my degree in a non-academic work environment?"
     
    newsongs likes this.
  10. JoshD

    JoshD Well-Known Member

    Kizmet, your last sentence could not be more true. I find that a lot of people go for Plan A without giving any thought to what they would do should that plan not work out. It then leaves them in a sticky situation. This is what makes online study so attractive.

    I think one has to truly consider how competitive they will be in the applicant pool for a teaching position in academia with an online doctoral degree. Like Kizmet said, these positions do not come open often and when they do, you best believe there are going to be a lot of highly qualified applicants. A doctoral degree from Walden, Capella, etc. just will not cut it most of the time.
     
  11. Steve Levicoff

    Steve Levicoff Well-Known Member

    Well, it took long enough, but I think that between Josh and Kizmet we have finally arrived at the correct answer.

    In short, there is a one-word answer to the original poster's question above, and the answer is neither.

    Online schools are a joke, many of today's professional doctorates are a joke, research doctorates from NA schools (if they exist at all) are a joke. And if you're not willing to go the only legit route to a research doctorate from an RA school that is not solely a so-called online university, you don't deserve a doctorate.

    And, as we might note from another recent thread, if you don't know what subject you should pursue a doctorate in, you shouldn't pursue a doctorate at all.

    Yes, the fact is that most of y'all who inquire about doctorates without a clear goal or a willingness to commit to the work required are unworthy trollops, which is why I laugh at you. Each and every one of you. Because you're funny, in a pathetic sort of way. But, at the least, you are deserving of my ridicule.
     
  12. Maxwell_Smart

    Maxwell_Smart Active Member

    Once you've decided on the major, block out some time and research published works (preferably those that are peer reviewed) in that field. You'll find a trail that leads you in two important directions. First, the schools the authors are currently connected to, and secondly the schools the authors graduated from. The volume and quality (and most importantly, the quality) of those works will give you an idea of which way to go. It's not uncommon for schools to favor instructors with a strong body of works under their belt so it won't hurt to assess the depth of the field.

    As always, consider the source of whatever criticism you receive regarding your choices and remember that no matter what choice you make there will always be a critic. Having said that, if the source/person is not respectable (e.g. doesn't carry themselves with maturity and dignity) discard their opinion.
     
  13. Cody Thompson

    Cody Thompson Member

    I should have clarified re: the writing piece, that although I do have a small interest in academic writing/publishing, I'm mostly talking about fine tuning writing skills for the sake of publishing books. Maxwell, thanks for the thoughts. I have actually done this type of research, such as digging into alumni from various schools, their work/publication/education history, etc. While I do absolutely believe academia is snooty in its own ways, I TRULY believe that the degree really matters little. What seems to matter are: 1) who you know, 2) what your area of expertise is, 3) research/publication history in this area and others, 4) supply/demand/competition in your profession. Call me out if I'm wrong here.

    I work and teach in a profession that has a terrible dry spell of faculty, and the accreditor for our healthcare programs doesn't care if the degree is from an NA or RA school, though the schools do. I do truly believe that the idea that an online degree is of no use in academia is silly. That seems like an antiquated mindset, given that people with families (I have 5 kids myself) and FT jobs are constantly working towards something. Schools like Walden and Capella (even ACE!) have folks working for universities, the CDC, the USAF (even NA degrees in the military) etc. It is entirely subjective on what you deem "respectable" and acceptable.

    To me, as Kizmet noted above, the piece of "what would I do with this if I wasn't in academia" is huge. Most PhDs wouldn't heavily inform my clinical career as a physical therapist. My other options are in healthcare ministry, public health, non-profits, etc. Thus, the constant digging into what would be the best overall fit, but also not cost an arm and a leg, or have a poor ROI.
     
  14. Cody Thompson

    Cody Thompson Member

    Kizmet, this find is awesome for more than just the purposes of this discussion. Just below where you found that quote, I found this one: "Provides an opportunity for industry professionals to offer input and observations thatreflect current and future employment needs in a changing global economy. •Demonstrates to various federal and state regulators that accredited institutions are leaders in the field of distance education and strive to prepare a workforce equipped to contribute to the changing economic landscape. •Provides the opportunity for member institutions to lead the change necessary in the field of education by offering students the chance to increase their knowledge and skills while meeting their personal and professional responsibilities"

    This actually has tremendous value because DEAC is recognizing the production of workforce individuals, while RA universities don't necessarily focus on this. This is a huge value-add to students who are either working, or working towards a paying gig, rather than just going to college with no direction for a BA/BS degree that doesn't get them a job in today's market, and coming out working at a daycare trying to payoff 100k in loans. Cool that DEAC is looking at this, and it seems I heard a rumor that the USDE/CHEA are both looking more into this workforce piece, and how degrees/tuition should be tailored towards ROI (?)

    Point being, thanks for directing me to this, Kizmet.
     
  15. Maxwell_Smart

    Maxwell_Smart Active Member

    On the way you're researching, you're on the right track.

    With regard to the degree itself, I have seen many situations that prove your view to be accurate. There are people who have taught at colleges with no degree at all, "jailhouse lawyers" teaching in law schools, and so on. Usually those people have high achievements in their field, lots of works. It goes to show how important works are.

    There will always be critics. I say as long as the degree is legitimately accredited and serves your need(s), who cares about the few critics? At this point, after having had the opportunity to audit courses at many schools, attend many, and doing some of my own independent research, I come away with the understanding that practically every school (RA or NA, for profit or non-profit) is using the same textbooks, the same course structures, near identical exams, and instructors that are comparably qualified, that's why when I see people try to make a deal of educational quality from one school to the next I realize immediately that they have no idea what they're saying. While you may run into a bad instructor or a bad administration, that can happen anywhere. The education itself rarely deviates from a common path now. It really is mostly cookie-cutter.

    One thing that shocked me when I first came to this realization was searching around a site called Coursehero. I found an entire Harvard degree course uploaded there, all of the handouts, reading requirements, quizzes, and exams. I then searched around some more and found other RA and NA schools with similar handouts, similar reading requirements, the same quizzes, and the same exams, referencing the same textbook. That site is demonized and I understand some of the reasons why, but people are missing an important underlying point the site unintentionally makes: All of these schools are teaching the same things in practically the same way and nobody seems to notice it, hence all of the silly bickering we get at sites like this one. There are certainly schools with more accomplished faculty, and for physical courses they may even have better facilities, but it's not like if you go to School A you'll get the fake education while School B gives you all the real stuff, lol. It doesn't work that way but a lot of people really do believe this based on how they post about it.
     
  16. Cody Thompson

    Cody Thompson Member

    AMEN. Well said. I have started a couple of doctoral programs, one even with a TRACS school. The RA ones were no better than the TRACS one. In fact, it was actually worse. (Yes, I'm aware that the utility of a TRACS degree is limited). And having worked as an administrator over higher ed at the state level, and overseeing programmatic accreditation (which is inherently NA) vs RA institutional accreditation, many of the NA/programmatic accreditors were more strict, and had higher quality standards. None of this matters, because in academia perception is everything (as well as the "do what we've always done" mentality). And RA isn't always bad. To your point, Maxwell, each school is can be so different and so the same. It really is tremendously works-based.
     
  17. JoshD

    JoshD Well-Known Member

    I do not want to come off as disrespectful, however, the idea that NA universities are more strict or have a higher quality of standards than RA universities is nothing more than trying to justify ones NA credentials. There is a reason that all of the top universities in the country are regionally accredited. If being nationally accredited meant more strictness/higher quality then Harvard, Yale, MIT, Dartmouth, Brown, Cornell, UPenn, etc. would all be NA accredited universities. The fact of the matter is that Regionally Accredited universities are far better in terms of quality than Nationally Accredited universities. Are there anomalies? Absolutely. There are anomalies in everything. However, 99% of NA schools are not near as reputable as their RA counterparts.
     
  18. Cody Thompson

    Cody Thompson Member

    Josh, I get it, and my intent is not to debate. But as was mentioned earlier, the "higher quality" of RA doesn't always flesh itself out in "better" education for students. The schools you mentioned have prestige, partly because of quality, partly because of age/longevity in the US higher ed scene, and a lot because of politics/money. For example, take law schools and their rankings. One prominent source (portion) of rankings is the faculty and admin AT THAT SCHOOL, and then the judges and attorneys in practice. Hard to say these are unbiased, given the subjective nature of people who WORK THERE and the reputation publicly known of the schools named "yale" and "harvard". This happened at the PT school I attended. It was ranked #20 in the country at the time. Come to find out the national rankings are based on faculty and admin, and some PT professionals, within THOSE SCHOOLS. It is the equivalent of football coaches in the coach's poll. They get to vote on the top 20-25 programs......WHO WOULDN'T PUT THEIR TEAM AS BETTER THAN THEY ARE???

    Now, I'm not so dumb as to think that Yale and Harvard are the same as Walden, or California Coast (DEAC). I'm just saying, there is a lot that goes into the quality of a school. Money and politics speak a lot. to many NA schools, the focus on ONE THING to be good at speaks a lot. They don't fit the focus of an RA college or university who wants to train the masses for broad subjects. So they can be better at what they are teaching and how they do it (overseen by a programmatic accreditor). If I want a law career, Im going to look at costs, ABA accreditation, and careers of folks who went to both. Most people get where they want to be not based on a degree, but on what they do and who they meet after having that degree. If a law grad from lowly Faulkner University Law school here in Alabama makes strong political connections in Montgomery (where I live; state capitol and heavy politics), they can easily connect back to a nice Washington DC gig, just knowing the right people, and just like a Yale grad.

    My point is given how much school costs now, how many courses at RA Univ's are taught by GA's, and how much online teaching is available by sub par folks, the onus is completely on the student (to learn and in a works-based format)
     
  19. LearningAddict

    LearningAddict Well-Known Member

    Everybody who challenges this isn't simply doing it to justify their NA degrees. With all due respect, that notion is simply a cheap way to dress down a person's position and have an excuse not to listen to their side.

    Most NA schools are simply much younger than the majority of RA schools and are therefore less well-known, that doesn't speak to quality. I'll even go as far as to say that in reality no one really knows how large the disparity in quality is between NA and RA schools if there even is one, and this is for two reasons: 1. No one has ever done any fair evaluation of the entire NA field which is a very large field btw, so the negativity is based on perception rather than actual examination, and 2. due to prejudices some have of the NA field they've never bothered to do item #1.

    So then people resort to an appeal to authority "Because these prestigious schools have RA accreditation instead of NA, that alone tells us RA schools are higher in quality". That's not a valid argument for a number of reasons, not the least of which being that all of those schools were in operation long before national accreditation even existed.

    All we know is that RA is generally an older system with more big names and money behind it which gives it the perception of higher quality and prestige, and that again doesn't speak to quality, that speaks to perception.

    Which again is all perception. This blanket and automatic favor given to RA schools simply because they're RA is not based on some kind of undeniable absolute truth.

    I'd bet that if there ever was a fair and balanced evaluation and comparison, the conclusion would more than likely be that the perceived difference in quality is all just that, perception, until you get to the high-achieving research-intensive universities which obviously would have a leg up on the average NA school because of what they contribute to the arts and sciences, but that's an elite class and a very small one that doesn't at all represent the average RA school. Like it was pointed out in this thread, pretty much every school is teaching the same stuff with the same materials with instructors that are similarly qualified. Knowing this, it's hard to hang on to the notion that there is this huge gulf in quality, because if there is what is it specifically based on other than perception and anecdote?
     
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  20. Kizmet

    Kizmet Moderator

    The primary piece of evidence that I point to is the simple fact that most RA schools do not accept NA credits or degrees. This rejection is not as stark as it once was but it continues to be true. I would want to add that these are the people who really know how to evaluate courses, credits, programs and degrees. These are the pros. Their opinions mean more than mine or yours or any other random persons. If they change their minds, and some schools have done so, then I will change mine.
     
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