Need Help on Deciding between Universities

Hi. I am a Canadian looking to do my PhD in computer science. I have been seeking a reseach-based PhD and after some looking around I found University of South Africa (unisa), Liverpool John Moore and Derby in UK.

What I need help with is to find out whether I should go with a UK university or unisa. After posting msgs on the DL newsgroup, Dr. Bear replied in favor of unisa but no real facts behind his decision. His simply said unisa is better known. Others said UK universities carry a higher rank. I called the education services dept at the University of Toronto and they said PhD's from unisa or UK are both equivalant to a PhD from a Canadian university, but they could not comment on which university is better accepted within the workforce/industy.

I will be doing research for the next 3-4 years and hope to end up in a professor position or back in the workforce. I want to make the right decision and I need to learn from your experiences/knowledge. I want to make the right choice. Maybe it is a tough question, but some people in the industry simply think less of unisa. Why, I don't know.

Thank you in advance,
J.

 

Having studied in all three countries, my suggestion is to go with your chioce where you like the best study program, time to completion and of course cost. (C.T.C)

The U of T (stuffy damn place) the old coggers there like Brit degrees, that is if it is your intention to become a professor there?.

If you are intending to take a teaching place in the USA or elsewhere, then go with my first suggestion CTC.

In other words..Gut choice.

Let us know your decision.


John Roberts Ph.D (London ICST)

 

If you are contemplating a British-style Ph.D. "by research", presumably you have an area of interest already in mind. Hopefully you already have a pretty good idea of what you want to do your research on.

So if I were you, I'd organize my search around that. I'd start looking at the departments and at the faculty at my target schools, and trying to discover what they are busy doing. What are they publishing? What presentations are they making at conferences? What projects are they associated with? What grants have they received?

That should gprovide a pretty good idea of how the departments are oriented and what their particular strengths and interests are. Then I'd rank them according to how well they match up with and can support my research interests, and would apply to them in that order.

Actually, other stuff like residency, bureaucratic efficiency and expense would factor in too, but the academic criterion would be most important for me.

As to how well they are received by employers, I think that departmental strength and who you studied with are probably as important as your school's name. If you go with the strongest school in your area of research, you have the best chance of getting recommendations that others will recognize, and you will be able to point to significant work that your department has done.

 

While I would agree with Johns answer above, I would put a bit more of a fine point on the answer. Choose the school where your choice of dissertation topic most closely fits with the area(s) of interest of faculty members (prospective advisors). Otherwise, there are two factors you'll want to consider. The first is that the British university will be unlikely to be willing to allow you to do the PhD on a 100% non-residential basis. Also, aside from the cost of that round trip plane ticket, UNISA costs a lot less than those British schools. Good luck,
Jack

 

I would go for the UK degree If you are looking for a professor position in Canada. Evidence shows that there are many professors teaching at canadian universities with british degrees and none or very few with south african degrees. University of South Africa has also the DL label that is not very well seen in the snoby academic circles.


For the other hand, a pure research degree can be a problem if you don't finish it since you will have a very hard time to have some credit or recognition for it. For example, the minister of Education of Quebec doesn't like pure research degrees because the lack of university transcripts. So if you don't fininsh it, you won't get paid for it at any college or university.

Also, some universities would hire you as a ABD student, (All but dissertation), but in the case of the UK degree you don't have such a status because the lack of course work.

As a separate issue, the PhD in Computer Science from UNISA requires some residencies. Airplane tickets to South Africa can be quite expensive compared to tickets to the UK.

If you are looking for an Industry job, it won't matter where you get your degree since your skills would play a more important role.

 

Thank you very much for your opinions. So far UNISA has said thatI am not required to travel to South Africa. I have a hard time finding out more about their computer science dept. and their reseaches... . Their web site is not very descriptive and it's close to impossible getting a reply from their info line. (However, their agent in Canada is very helpful. I may have to call him.) But the fees are extremely low. $1,200Cdn per year. That, I like. UNISA says I can submit my thesis after 2 years. (if I am ready

On the other hand, Liverpool JM University seems to have done research in my area of expertise. Their web site is descriptive about their previous researches, and I have talked to the Dean of the Computing dept. over the phone. They do require me to travel to the UK twice per year. Once if I keep regular contacts with them. And I am required to stay there at least a week. (just to show my face). Their fees are close to $10,000 per year. (Some other UK universities were around $15,000). They say that it'll probably be any where between 3-5 years before I can submit my thesis.

I know my abilities, and I know I can do the research with very little help from the University. But I don't want my PhD to be laughed at either. So, as you can see, I have quite a hard decision to make. I am more leaning towards UNISA because of costs, but...

I welcome further comments.
Thankyou all in advance,
J.

 

Javad, as you will have read from the boards postings, there isn't too much difference in opinion when it comes to cost and of course acceptance of your foreign Doctorate by the U of T administration.

It all comes down to cost & time (all inclusive that is), however you never said if you tried the Canadian universities, which as you know like any other country give tuition breaks for citizens of that country?

If its international approach that you want, and you can do a distance Doctorate degree with the expense of travel, time away from home and lodgings, then I think you may not have a time or money problem here?

All that being said, stick with the stuffy Brit approach if it is your intention to teach at the U of T. If you intend to go into industry go with UNISA, but dont forget to check out Canadian universities first and do your comparison of the offerings against the UK/UNISA programs, since you must be satisfied with what it is your doing.

By the way, Im guessing here that you must have an Undergrad & Grad degree from a Canadian university...eh?

Let us know real soon where your going, because your taking too long to decide?

Good luck.

John Roberts Ph.D (London, ICST)

 

I don't think your UNISA degree would be a reason to laugh at, however, professor positions in Canada are very competitive and your UNISA degree can be in a bad position against a PhD from U of Toronto or Waterloo. A PhD from UNISA can be a good asset if you are looking for a community college position where the PhD is not a requirement but it can give you a pay raise.

Another possibility are australian universities, not as expensive as british universities and well regarded in Canada.

I also considered UNISA at one point, but when I commented this to my department's chair ( I teach part time), he told me that a UNISA degree would be very hard to use for a full tenure position since you have many PhDs from good universities waiting inline for an opportunity.

I decided to go for an Australian degree, I got a better feedback from my chair about australian degrees but they also don't guarantee anything.

I also teach at the community college level, there I can see that a PhD from UNISA can be an advantage since it would give you a considerable pay increase compared to a M.Sc.

In conclusion, if a PhD from UNISA is all you can afford then go for it. There is some utility for it as an adjunct faculty or full time tenured community college professor. But if you are looking for a full time tenure position at the university level, then go for a residential PhD in Canada or a DL one from a reputable university.

 

>>however, professor positions in Canada are very competitive and your UNISA degree can be in a bad position against a PhD from U of Toronto or Waterloo.

That's exactly what I am afraid of. And yes, I do have my BSc and MSc.

Almost all Canadian Universities want me to attend the school, take relevant courses etc.. which I cannot afford (time wise). That's why I am leaning towards a research-based PhD where I can do my reserach later in the evening after my kids to to bed.

I would hate to spend several years working on a topic, getting my degree, then not be able to compete for a prof. position.

 

Javad, you have now come full circle and with a little help from your friends, the choice is door 'No 1'. Given the Canadian and UK cost base and the fact that you cant be away from home, UNISA appears to present the best solution for you (with the qualifier).

Just make sure that the place offered to you by UNISA, has the no strings attached, such as add on fees, and the trip to meet with your supervisor, (get the damn offer in writing first with full details).

All this said and done, sign up and dont delay, the 2-3 years will come real fast..young man.

Go for it, and dont worry about the crusty ole 'U of T' administration, because they too are changing, and if you have the professional/industrial experience, coupled with that Canadian Masters and a good Ph.D/DPhil from a recognised university you will end up with a teriffic tenure. The world is bigger than Toronto, and I for one dont consider it an ivy league brick school house.

For example, if you started out at one of the regional or smaller universities such as Trent university in the North east of Toronto (only an hours drive from Toronto) or another university somewhere in Canada (west coast), these choices give you the back door into the Canadian system (paid your dues have you)
and you will have successfully gotten the degree you wanted (UNISA) , lowest cost, stay at home with the kids.

Oh one very important thing I forgot to mention, in the UK Supervisors/Profs and the examination team love to screw you around at the time your ready to present (it happens a lot) and quite a few Ph.D candidates in the UK end up presenting at continental universities in Belgium, Holland & Germany since it's hassle free.

Only a point to consider and this could be a serious issue for you when considering a UK approach.

Good luck again with you choice and in choosing UNISA?

John Roberts Ph.D (London ICST)

 

Excellent advise from wise people.

I am truely thankfull to all of you who replied to this thread, helping me out. And I will certainly post my decision on this newsgroup. Although, yes, I am leaning more towards UNISA.

I will now go and have a glass of Red.... to your health.

 

John,

I don't have nothing against UNISA, however, it would be a little naive to think that you will be offered a full time tenure track job when you fininsh your degree without extra effort when you are competing with many local PhDs that can't find a job in local universities. I know of many full time PhD students that work 60 hours a week during five years to get a canadian PhD and don't find a full time tenure position and they have to teach at the community college level before a position becomes available to them (I'm talking about computer fields and not arts).

Remember that the computer science field got hit this year and there are many PhDs looking for a job these days.

The exception could be if you are already teaching at the university level like a lecturer with your M.Sc and you work in your PhD at the same time, according to university rules you will have to be considered for an assistant professor position because of your new PhD.

So if you are looking to teach at the university level, the best advice will be to teach with your M.Sc and hope that your PhD can help you to secure a full time tenure position. Remember that canadian universities have faculty unions and you can play with seniority instead of fancy degrees.

Also, a good teaching and research record can help to compensate the lack of a "prestigious" degree.

Most of the universities give a lot of weight to research, however, full time students have an advantage since they have much more time to publish and normally have much more publications that professionals working in industry.

I feel that the idea of doing a two year part time DL PhD to get a job that normally requires a full time five year PHD can be a little be illusional.

The DL PhD from UNISA can work for few cases, but you are taking a big risk that perhaps is not worth the effort.

I would spend more money and make sure that my degree would have a high degree of acceptability.

 

uhm.... well, what can I say.... thank you though.

My eduation is in software engineering, I am a P.Eng, I have been working in my field for over 12 years, have 3 books published, I write frequently for tech magazines... I am hoping all of these would play a factor. And I wouldn't be doing a 2 year part-time DL PhD. I'd be putting in at least 40 hours per week if not more (and I also work in my field of research).

So, yet another low mark for unisa.

 

Javad, an interesting comment from RF VALVE, however in your case your not bringing to the table a straight route to the Ph.D through BSc, MSc like a normal professional research student.

You have offered a lot more in a professional career, published works, teaching, mentoring and coaching and of course the P.Eng are all in your favour.

My guess is your 35-45 years old and want the top dog Degree, which is normal for a mid career professional (as do those mid career pros that want their MBA).

Many universities offer the DSc as an alternate to the Ph.D/DPhil to those well versed in their field, and who have considerable contributions to the science of practice, that have also published.

I have personally mentored and tutored people that have gone the BSc or Masters straight into the DSc.

Check with the school where you did your degrees, you never know its anothe approach worth considering for you?.

In my opinion, your underselling and under estimatiing yourself, given the comments from this board, all have looked at you through the pure academic route in choosing your school for the Doctorate and without knowing all of the facts about how you achieved the status of where you are today, saying (I think this is what they mean) 'that they might have a hard time giving a tenure to a Canadian in a Canadian school having a UNISA Ph.D, but your different eh?

You can always start teaching at the Masters level and see if this is for you, but my guess is you will survive quite nicely ' thank you very much' staying in professional life and teaching on the side CPD/P.E.O/Professional couses at the U of T or another university. Again it's a great way to see if you want to be a Professor (you never know you may hate it) and I'll bet you will make a hell of a lot more money this way.

Good luck, let us know your outcome and decision and please close this discussion once and for all to let Javad get on with his life and studues.

'GO for it', the ultimate decision is yours anyway.

John Roberts Ph.D (London ICST)

 

Correct, the ultimate decision is mine and the wealth of advise in this forum has certainly helped me along.

Thank you again,
J.
ps. I am intending to call a few local universities, talk to their Dean, to see what they have to say about this topic. I will post their replies. Should be interesting.

 

We will happy to hear that. In case you are interested, I have included a list of universities in australia that offer the PhD in Computer Science or Information Technology, most of them charge between $6000 to $8000 AUD a year. An australian dollar is about 90 cents canadian.

Charles Sturt University, Phd
University of Southern Queensland, Phd
Deakin University, DTech


The minimum required time for Charles Sturt is 2 years and for USQ three years. They don't differentiate between part time and full time at the PhD level.

I've seen many professors teaching with australian degrees in Canada, so I believe it would be a safer route and not as expensive as UK degrees

 

RF at 6-8 grand a year Aussy money (colourful stuff), the poor guy cant afford it, he already said the UNISA was a preferred choice, at only $1250/year Cdn, (Loonie dollars) and in 2 years to complete (says Javad). wow it's a no brainer?

If UNSA is legitimate with its offer to Javad, and he can get that written offer, it would be like getting a teriffic VW Bug versus an Audi, both good quality but rich snob value in the difference.

Javad, if you need help contacting the local agent guy, please post his name and contact details, and I will give him a call to try to divy up and confirm the offer one way or another.

Cheers.

John Roberts Ph.D (London ICST)

 

You are overlooking the opportunity cost John, If Javad says that he will spend 40 hours a week during two years and lets assume that an hour as a consultant is the Toronto area is about $60 dlls an hour (may be more), you will have close to two hundred thousand dollars invested in time for the PhD if not more.

If the guy feels that his time is worth the risk then it is up to him. But I would hate to invest two hundred thousand dollars of my time for nothing.

You may be saving some money (15000 thousand in case of the australian degree), but you are jeopardizing the time invested that in my opinion is too much compared to the other possible options.

 

RF, Okay so you want to continue this dialogue, then if Javad does the Aussy thing DL and still spends 40 hours a week doing this (remember he is on a fast track), the Aussy degree at 2 years for Strut & 3 years for USQ (your number) still works out to more dollars. Either way Javad said he would continue working no matter which route he took, and if it's 2 years to the UNISA or Aussy degree, then cost leans towards the UNISA...correct (economics 101)

By the way a consultant PEng in Toronto of Javad's calibre can get minimum $100/hr, but more than likely $150/hr. This guy is a pro, not a Technologist.

You said you taught community college, then your salary should be around $70K.

My take is that Javad stays as an Engineer making $80K-$120k, writes his books, continues with his mentoring/tutoring, and after he gets his Ph.D he takes a PT position at one of the Universities teaching CPD/P.E.O prep courses at $100-$150/hr.

He will have completed his terminal objectives that he started out discussing, a satisfied family man with a career, a Doctorate and two satisfying jobs if he so desires.

No more responses from me on this topic...Its back to you Javad.

John Roberts Ph.D (London ICST)


P.S
By the way, 'RF VALVE' is a good handle, you must be a Brit or Aussy/Kiwi, since the RF Valve terminology was used outside of North America only (tubes are used here). Do you remember the EL41,PL81 or the 807 Valves?.

 

Suppressor grids, screen grids, and thoriated tungsten; how I pine for simpler times!

You could of course negotiate a PhD from KW-U; or go the long route with them vis-à-vis 150 page discourse and a minimum of 13 references.

Sorry guys, I just couldn’t help myself.

Cheers…Randy