18 Credits in 7 days

Re: Lunacy

 

Appology

Bill:

The note was to you and David. Correction, you did not quote CCU as a mill, but David did infer:

"According to students enrolled there even the graduate level courses consist of reading one textbook and taking an unproctored open book multiple choice test. This is NOT college level work. It is so close to degree mill behavior to be fair to classify as a degree mill. "

Sorry I lumped my feelings to you both in one email.

However, K-W, is not a mill.

Regards,

RJT

 

Re: Appology

Why thank you, RJT!

 

A big assumption being made by many critics of state approved schools is that university instructors require a R/A master's degree so the unaccredited doctorate is irrelevant.

Would it not be a reasonable assumption to say that a significant portion of these instructors were hired because of their doctorate rather than in spite of it.

A frequent poster here has stated that an unaccredited doctorate is a negative in an otherwise good academic record. Much anecdotal evidence would suggest otherwise.

When asked, schools may provide a pre-written blurb as to minimum qualifications for instructors but ultimately hire, whomever they see fit, within reason.

This is similar to student admissions where admission of students to a program may be stated as a certain qualification, yet lesser qualifications may easily gain a conditional admission.

The success of large numbers of graduates of state approved schools is hard to ignore. I would suggest that if Randell1234 wishes to rehabilitate his degree, he try accredited master's programs, especially those run for profit.

 

The Acid Test

Test Subject: OracleGuy
Objective: To see if a degree from K-W would help or hinder me
Fact: Have a 4 year diploma from Military Collage. My employment is based on this and my 20+ years experience in IT/Communications
Control: My boss

Experiment:

1) Had “Control” re-read my resume with K-W inserted instead of CFSCEE.
a. Would I be hired? Outcome = YES
2) Had Control spend 15 mins. on the internet to research K-W
3) Re-questioned Control
a. Would I be hired? Outcome = NO WAY!


Although not empirical, nor properly formatted, you get the picture. Is K-W a mill? I don’t know; by some standards yes, by others no. But form me, the point is moot. Once educated, my boss was adamant! Thus my own motivation to “move” from K-W to an accredited school.

Cheers...Randy

 

OracleGuy

I like your address.

 

Re: OracleGuy

Are you a CIPS Edmonton Member?

 

Re: Re: OracleGuy

No. I'm strictly a user. I am an accountant. What makes computers tick is someone elses job.

 

Re: The Acid Test

Very Good point Oracle Guy!, Regular people don't understand accreditation regulations, but if you do a quick search about K-W, all you can see is bad press. Besides RJIT comments, I haven't seen anyone cheering up for them.

But I agree that CCU is perhaps the best option for the unaccredited ones, I haven't seen any bad comments anywhere besides the Oregon regulation against it.

 

Re: The Acid Test

A very thought provoking experiment. Thank you so much for sharing it with us.

 

Re: Re: The Acid Test

Hmmm... While CCU does seem one of the better unaccredited schools, it seems doubtful it is the best. Also the consensus here on CCU has been mixed at best. I've read from a number of people it should never be chosen for a bachelor's degree. Some are less strong when it comes to a Ph.D. Definately NOT a ringing endorsement.

 

Re: Re: Re: The Acid Test

The examples I've seen where people get some utility out of an unaccredited degree is when they already have the minimum degree level of their job satisfied with an RA degree. That is why I argue that an unaccredited Bachelor's degree is so rarely a good idea.

One point that Rich sometimes makes is that all this talk about unaccredited degrees is bullshit. (Hey I'm telling the story so I can tell it my way. ) The number of real unaccredited schools is a tiny drop in the bucket compared to the huge number of RA schools and the smaller number of degree mills that don't even teach any courses (but still much more than real unaccredited schools). Yet it seems to occupy a large amount of the bandwidth. (Perhaps I shouldn't have bothered even giving Rich credit for this story because it sounds so much different when I tell it, maybe no one would have noticed? ) (If nothing else I'll use this post to try and convince Rich that he doesn't use too many paranthetical comments, at least when compared to me.)

 

Re: Re: Re: Re: The Acid Test

I don't see the point in personally attacking Rich. He has done a lot of research into this area, and people should take it for what it's worth. Yes, ceteris paribus, RA is the way to go. That doesn't mean the NA or UA does't have some utility and a market segment to fill. What some people on this forum get upset about are the absolutes drawn concerning accreditation. Sadly, and weirdly, Rich doesn't seem (to me) to draw any (usually) absolutes except where they are spelled out by fact. Also, if you read other posters' responses, this is again usually the case. They are not stating absolutes. I again use usually, because there is the occasional use of can't, won't, wouldn't be,.........whatever. Fine, that is usually true. I believe the concern is how it is stated. Well, to explain my attraction to this forum, I like the many viewpoints made possible by many experiences. I like the many takes on the same information for the same reason. And, I like it when people view posts as informative and not attacking.

Tony
...and I ramble on...

 

Tired of the Bashing

I must say that I do get disappointed and angry at the constant bashing of unaccredited schools. Ture Mills, sure, they should be outlawed. But thers are good schools, which require coursework, and DO NOT JUST HAND OUT DEGREES. Case in point, a while back I mentioned that I am now attending PW, and as a first assignment, I am completeing a very detailed process of researching and quantifying a portfolio, for submission for possible ACE credit. I was advised that no real school would do this at the graduate level. However, when I checked out Jones Int'l., I found that they offer a Portfolio option, and would offer up to 9 units of credit, for credible experience, after staff evaluation. How is this than an RA school, permitted? PW, outside of portfolio credits, requires that 40 credits must be earned thru cousework.

I realize that there are limits, and if somebody is misrepresenting a PW, CCU, KU, CPU (which are all legally state liscenced schools)to practice medicine, lets say - that's a crime. However, if I am competent and worked hard to obtain a legally state licsenced degree, as long as I am presenting it as such, there is no cause for a bomb going off in my resume, or automatic termination. All this bashing is tiresome. Wake up and smell the coffee, there are places, where a SL degree, could be benefical, especially as in my case, where I can apply my knowledge in my job.

RJT

 

Re: Tired of the Bashing

I suggest that it would be best to get used to it since you have one degree mill degree already and are apparently going for a better but probably not a lot more useful unaccredited "graduate" degree. Remeber that your credentials are from the academic strata that has the worst reputation, unaccredited schools. The general population puts your degrees in the same category as the degree mills that you were berating.

Actually it will likely be harder dealing with the stuff that you don't even hear about, like your resumes being thrown in the trash. Your calls not being returned. Being passed over for that promotion. These are the real problem of going with a lower tier school. Just about everyone else will have a far superior credential.

It is actually very easy for me to live with you holding nearly useless credentials but please don't get angry when other people are warned about taking the same path that you've chosen for yourself. Getting other people to make the same mistake is not going to make your decisions any better. I'm really not trying to make you angry. On the other hand I really don't care if you do get angry. (Please note, if you are really a Roberta, then saying I don't care about your feelings might be considered a declaration of war. If that is the case then email me and maybe we can work out a compromise where I agree to care a little bit. )

 

Valid Points

Bill:

How do you then reply to Ee who makes very valid points:



"It is incorrect to allege that "an unaccredited program is the same thing as a degree mill program."

(David Hayden: "To 99% of the public an unaccredited degree is a degree mill degree. To think otherwise is to ignore reality. With all of the low cost RA programs out there, we have yet to hear a valid reason for choosing an unaccredited degree over an accredited one.")

**** Wonder who are the 99% of the population? In the academic circle, maybe. But outside it, the business or commercial world a big NO!!!! Do you know that there are many many unaccredited degrees holders in very very successful high profile positions and got many many RA graduates reporting to them? That's reality!!

"Do you have regard for laws? State laws?"

(David Hayden: "Yes. The issue, however, is the validity of unaccredited degrees, especially from subpar businesses that have chosen to remain unaccredited because they are unable to meet minimal standards.")

*** hey, so you are implying that state laws are not valid?

(David Hayden: "Being state licensed means little. As someone has already pointed out, some of the biggest degree mills of all time have been state licensed.")

*** Yes, as explained by others state licensed does not mean approval. How about state approved status like CCU that can be eligible for state licensing exams?

"Oops, just that familarity breeds comtempt wondering who are the familiar persons that share this statement?"

(David Hayden: "Your point here is rather unclear. Perhaps one of the better unaccredited programs is CCU. According to students enrolled there even the graduate level courses consist of reading one textbook and taking an unproctored open book multiple choice test.")

*** Assuming your are right about the unproctored exams, will proctoring change your stand on CCU? Come on, whether it is proctored or not, it is not the point you want to make. If it is an unproctored exam in a RA school, it is alright. See the element of bias. Lets be objective.

(David Hayden: "This is NOT college level work. It is so close to degree mill behavior to be fair to classify as a degree mill.")

**** Are you trying to affirm that schools providing unproctored exams are mills?

"Reality? Reality is many state approved graduates are doing great and time bombs cannot seemed to be detonated against them. Who defines minimal standard by law?"

**** What I read is mostly time bombs of fake degrees. Having a state approved degree is not a time bomb but the manner it is being used is. Likewise for an RA degree. A PhD non medical doctor in using the Dr. title in a medical environment is wearing a time bomb too. Why not prove your point by detonating the time bomb of some prominent persons holding state approved degrees like CCU ??? With all this talk of unaccredited degrees, it can be seen that in reality many prominent persons are doing damn well and there is not such time bomb in existence.



*** Choices are subjective. The bottom line is whether RA or not, one should not be bias against education and use one's credential with care.

 

Re: Tired of the Bashing

I don't bash all unaccredited schools. In fact, I think that one of the CA-approved schools offers (arguably) the best program of its kind in the entire world. Better, and considerably more expensive, than Harvard.

The thing about non-accredited programs is that they have not undergone the expected outside quality assurance process. So these schools have the responsibility to demonstrate their credibility in some other way.

That's *their* responsibility. It isn't our obligation to accept them uncritically.

I think that it will take a lot more than that to demonstrate credibility, especially at the doctoral level. If the school is churning out "Ph.D.s", is it publishing any research? Are people from the school making presentations at conferences? Is the school recognized by professional organizations? Are its staff serving as fellows or in research collaborations with better known institutions?

Few non-accredited schools can pass that kind of test, but even the fourth-tier RA schools can.

If you want to get some education, my response is fine. Good for you. I don't care what school you attend, so long as you get something valuable out of it.

But if you want all of us to accept your degree, then you need to provide some evidence that your university maintains the accepted and expected standard for that particular degree. In the absence of accreditation, the school will have to come up with something pursuasive. That's their job, not ours.

Given the tremendous number of substandard nonaccredited schools out there, and the tiny number of nonaccredited schools that are academically sound, I think that it is rational and prudent to treat all non-accredited schools with skepticism.

Not necessarily outright rejection, but a withholding of approval until sufficient evidence is received to warrant it.

 

Since RJT takes an answered response as a sign a post has merit, I wanted to respond to Ee's post.

Ee**** I have been around. I have a good RA degree not an unaccredited degree but I will never never take the stand of belittling unaccredited degrees. I do not find anything wrong with unaccredited schools like CCU.

No one is here to belittle anyone. When an anonymous poster shows up shouting the praises of a degree mill like institution (K-W), and then fails to answer ANY of the questions that come up, it is important to discuss the issue.

Ee**** Wonder who are the 99% of the population? In the academic circle, maybe. But outside it, the business or commercial world a big NO!!!! Do you know that there are many many unaccredited degrees holders in very very successful high profile positions and got many many RA graduates reporting to them? That's reality!!

The 99% are the academic, business and remaining population. As has been pointed out, the first question will be "is it accredited?" If you answer no, most will assume it is a degree mill. In the second part of your paragraph you make a statement that is likely not true. Where did you get this idea? I assume there are some people in higher positions that have unaccredited degrees. Where did you get the idea that they are a large percentage? Are you saying that unaccredited degree mill like degrees would get a person there?

Ee*** hey, so you are implying that state laws are not valid?

No, I am implying that it is totally unrelated to the question of academic validity of degrees and institutions. It also unrelated to how the degree is not accepted. Rich has already pointed out that the biggest degree mills have been state licensed.

Ee*** Yes, as explained by others state licensed does not mean approval. How about state approved status like CCU that can be eligible for state licensing exams?

CCU has been discussed at length. Its undergraduate and graduate degrees consist almost solely of unproctored open book multiple shoice exams according to its students. This puts it at the bottom of the barrel academically.

Ee*** Assuming your are right about the unproctored exams, will proctoring change your stand on CCU? Come on, whether it is proctored or not, it is not the point you want to make. If it is an unproctored exam in a RA school, it is alright. See the element of bias. Lets be objective.

Yes, let's be objectice. The question is academic rigor. Would any school pass RA review if it had all open book unproctored multiple choice tests? Might a Community College class some where have only such a test? Yes. That College, however, has subjected itself to RA review and passed. What percentage of classes might have tests like that? .01%? Less? RA is useful because it gurantees a minimal level of academic rigor and acceptance that the unaccredited schools can't meet.

Ee**** Are you trying to affirm that schools providing unproctored exams are mills?

The question is the lack of academic rigor at the vast majority(99.9%?) of unaccredited schools.

Ee**** What I read is mostly time bombs of fake degrees. Having a state approved degree is not a time bomb but the manner it is being used is. Likewise for an RA degree.

Read this forum a little more closely and you'll find the stories of people who regret taking unaccredited programs and the later cost of such choice.

Ee*** Choices are subjective. The bottom line is whether RA or not, one should not be bias against education and use one's credential with care.

The topic is and has been should people choose an unaccredited degree over an accredited one. The answer is, of course, no. As has been pointed out repeatedly education can easily be gained without a College or University. Degrees are about certification. Unaccredited degrees usually have little utility as such.

 

I believe that it is common in the general population to equate unaccredited to degree mill. I don't see it on this board nearly as often.

There are a few unaccredited degree successes, I'm sure. As to many, what do you mean by many and are they in that position because they have an unaccredited degree? I would say no, they are probably successful in spite of having an unaccredited degree.

You continue to miss the mark with this state law argument.

There is no state law that says that unaccredited degrees must be useful.

There are many examples where degree mills have been closed down by law enforcement and the degree mills were apparently following the state licensing laws.

David is probably slightly harder on CCU that I am. I have NOT looked into CCU. The problem with CCU, IMHO, is that it is not accredited nor is it likely to ever be accredited. Please keep in mind that there's only a small handful of schools in the same category as CCU. (K-W is not one of those, in my opinion.) That means that few people in the general population even accept that this small category exists and even if they do accept the category as real they aren't likely to know that CCU is in that category. So a degree from there will likely be painted with the same brush as unaccredited schools in general, at least by the general population.

Reminder: Bob Jones is an exception. They are unaccredited but I don't bother always listing them as an exemption to my statements regarding unaccredited schools.

I am not saying that a CCU degree is a time bomb nor have I ever argued that it should be a time bomb.

Choices are subjective but that doesn't mean that all choices made are good.

I haven't seen anyone argue against education. I just see people arguing that if all you want is an education then you can visit the library or buy text books at the local college book store much cheaper than you can enroll in an unaccredited degree program. If a person is enrolling in a degree program because they want to get and then use the credential gained from that then, for it to be very useful, it needs to be accredited.