Albuquerque police kill man for illegally camping on public land.

Discussion in 'Off-Topic Discussions' started by jam937, Mar 25, 2014.

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  1. jam937

    jam937 New Member

    They shot him in the back for illegally camping on public land. In all fairness he did have a past, violent criminal record but come on how about using a Tazer gun.

    "Video shows the man standing by his meager possessions, surrounded by rifle-toting officers who were citing him for illegally camping without government permission. Officers ultimately tossed a concussion grenade in his face, sicked an attack dog on him, and shot him to death with a flurry of gunfire."

    Here's the news report
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I7pnUjEY1xE

    This shows more of the video (and other clips from other police killings)
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Am6KKMdTSEk#t=174
     
  2. mcjon77

    mcjon77 Member

    You forgot to mention the TWO knives he had in his hand at the time. This standoff went on for 3 hours. Toward the end, they tased him, threw flash-bang grenades, and even fired beanbags at him, all to no avail. Once he pulled out the TWO knives, that was all she wrote.

    For an understanding of why cops armed with guns take some guy only armed with knives so seriously, read up on the Tueller drill (AKA the 21 foot rule).

    This might turn out to be a bad shoot after an investigation, but as it stands now, I don't blame the officers.
     
  3. rebel100

    rebel100 New Member

    He got shot when he armed himself, I've worked many stab/lacerated patients, the knives where absolutely a threat and the use of force looks justified.
     
  4. Maniac Craniac

    Maniac Craniac Moderator Staff Member

    You, sir, are in direct violation of universal internet forum protocol, which requires that you fill in all missing details with speculation that supports your preconceived notions. :deal:
     
  5. rebel100

    rebel100 New Member

    Does suck that with all that less than lethal firepower he still got shot and killed. There are no perfect answers.

    The shots that appear to come from the POV look to be made with friendlies to close to the line of fire...I think that's more uncomfortable to me than anything. Might not choose him to back me up.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Mar 27, 2014
  6. jam937

    jam937 New Member

    We only have the video that police released and the media decided to show. Unless we see the full, unedited video we won't have all the facts. But ...

    Let's break down the video we have:

    0:28 Officers fire flash bang grenade at man (now he can't see or hear)
    0:29 Man immediately puts hands up
    0:30 Officer sends dog to attack (why? man has hands up)
    0:31 Man pulls out two knives to defend himself (can't see/hear, dog attacking, we all react differently)
    0:32 Officers yelling for man to get on ground (can't see/hear, dog has arm)
    0:37 Man turns around and starts to lean towards ground (he's complying)
    0:38 Officers shoot him in the back and kill the man
    2:35 Officer Sandy who fired first shot has troubled past (not supposed to have gun?)
    3:48 Attorney says he's never seen a "murder" captured on video
    5:13 Suspect is turning away and leaning towards ground when officers fired 6 shots
    5:26 Man does have history of violence going back 20 years

    At no point were any officers in "immediate" danger in the video. The key here is immediate. The officers knew from prior incidents that the man had mental health issues. Police told the press in 2007 that Officer Sandy, guy who fired first shot and who has troubled past, would not be carrying gun or badge.

    An effective Tazer gun shot would have ended it without injury. I know police "say" they used a Tazer rifle but it was not seen/evident in the video. Either they missed or Tazed him as the bullets hit him.


    Let's look at some other news regarding Albuquerque police:

    Albuquerque Mayor: APD chief’s justification of shooting a ‘mistake’
    Mayor Berry: APD chief’s justification of shooting a ‘mistake’ | Albuquerque News & Weather | Abq, Rio Rancho, Santa Fe, NM | krqe.com

    The Albuquerque Police Department (APD) has come under fire for the string of deadly incidents, and in November of 2012, the U.S. Department of Justice launched a civil rights investigation into "allegations that APD officers engage in use of excessive force, including use of unreasonable deadly force, in their encounters with civilians."
    Albuquerque homeless man shooting: Albuquerque police department under fire for use of deadly force - CBS News

    State District Judge Theresa Baca handed down a massive judgment to the family of a man fatally shot by an APD officer in 2009 and blasted the department’s training methods as “designed to result in the unreasonable use of deadly force.”
    APD Deadly Force Under Fire | Albuquerque Journal News
     
  7. TEKMAN

    TEKMAN Semper Fi!

    I hate criminals, but this is clearly a murder to me. Yes, the man had history of felony, but there was no reason to use deadly forces on him. I am sure 6 officers and a K-9 dog are strong enough to apprehend the suspect by disarming him.

    People used to send around a joke, "No trespassing, violator will be shot, survivor will be shot again!" Apparently, this is exactly in the situation.
     
  8. rebel100

    rebel100 New Member

    Yeah would have been better if it ended like this one right?:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=75RTkGbiJpk&oref=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.youtube.com%2Fwatch%3Fv%3D75RTkGbiJpk&has_verified=1 Action starts around the 4 minute mark.

    Notice how they refused to use their superior weapons (AK47 vs Knife), they let themselves get way to close, once they went to guns we hear multiple shots and then see the perpetrator continue to try and fight. This is the sort of video the guys from Albuquerque where likely trained with, when working for the PD I was trained that a guy with a knife under 20 feet is a lethal threat, he can likely get to you before you can draw, aim, and fire.

    Within the context of their unique training and experience I think this event as we saw it is unfortunate, but fully preventable only by the perpetrator himself. I'm glad all the cops went home safe. The woods around Albuquerque are a lot safer without a guy who trespasses, defies authority in a stand off , and goes on the offensive with knives when all he's being asked to do is leave a place he doesn't belong.
     
  9. 03310151

    03310151 Active Member

    Careful what the media shows you in these instances. I'd rather wait and see what comes about after the incident is fully investigated.
     
  10. jam937

    jam937 New Member

    The guy in this video is chasing the police and trying to stab/cut them.

    The guy in the Albuquerque video was not chasing nor attacking police. In fact, the Albuquerque police were clearly the aggressors in that video. The homeless guy tried to comply with officers a couple times but they kept attacking him unti they shot him in the back while he was trying to lie down.

    Not a fair comparison
     
  11. rebel100

    rebel100 New Member

    The guy in Nicaragua didn't attack a damn thing till they closed in on him. Did you even watch the video?

    Your right though, if we never send the cops to investigate crimes they wouldn't have to shoot homeless hillbillies with knives.
     
  12. TEKMAN

    TEKMAN Semper Fi!

    I did not say anything about shooting the homeless guy to disarm him was wrong. What I saw in the video that there was not a chaotic situation; but they shot him 3 times, then once he was wounded. Then continue to shoot him to dead. That was not justified, but I am fear this could happen to anyone in the future.

    Obviously there are good police officers, and there are bad ones. Apparently these cops are the bad one. In fact, their department was under watched prior this incident as they have more kills than New York City, which Albuquerque is 16 times smaller. The Police Department chief said it was justified because he was not only cover the police officers, but also his butt too.

    Frankly some police offers do not know the basic American rights.
     
  13. 03310151

    03310151 Active Member

    Is there a completely unedited version of the video out there? What other measures were taking by LE? Did they just happen upon a homeless guy and start a-shootin? Or were other non lethal measures taken before applying deadly force? I've never had a confrontation with the police, but all they need to do is yell at me one time to get down. I'd be down so fast they'd think I was an NFL linebacker starting my burpee routine.
     
  14. TEKMAN

    TEKMAN Semper Fi!

    Albuquerque Police Clash With Protestors [video]http://www.newsy.com/videos/albuquerque-police-clash-with-protestors/[/video]
     
  15. jhp

    jhp Member

    In several jurisdictions, a police dog is considered an officer.
     
  16. rebel100

    rebel100 New Member

    I agree that room clearly exists for vast improvement...I just don't for a second buy "murder". I am Ok with everything up to the final shots that appear to come late and from the camera POV. I suspect that guy had his safety engaged and when it came time to shoot he experienced a delay, by the time he got back into the fight it was essentially over and he may well have been better off to hold his fire. From the picture we see he appears to nearly catch a fellow officer in a cross fire. We send these guys out with lethal weapons and teach them to interdict violent people on our behalf, I'm inclined to side with the cops over the knife wielding jackass.

    I have heard reports (unconfirmed) that this is the last few minutes of a 3 hour stand off. They clearly brought along and tried to implement less than lethal including the yellow shotguns and flash bang, and the police K9. Additionally, all the drama could have been prevented had the guy just complied with the order to leave, his life would almost certainly have been spared even had he continued to refused yet not drawn the weapons. This thing could absolutely have been handled better, it could also have easily become a a multiple homicide of cops.
     
  17. 03310151

    03310151 Active Member

    But, it's so much more fun to froth at the mouth and pass judgement before all facts are IN. COPS MURDER EVERYONE ZOMFGLOLROFLHELICOPTER!!!!!! is the new ZIMMERMAN KILLED A POOR BABY BECAUSE HE WAS BLACK ZOMFGLOLROFLBBQ!!!!!!

    What's funny is that it comes from both "sides".
     
  18. rebel100

    rebel100 New Member

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