Very unusual Doctorate at Harrison Middleton University (DETC school)

Discussion in 'General Distance Learning Discussions' started by anngriffin777, Mar 20, 2014.

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  1. scottae316

    scottae316 New Member

    Yes most ministers would probably get a DMin. But the H-M Da could probably be used to meet CE requirements for denomination that require it and may be of more interest to some individuals.
     
  2. BillDayson

    BillDayson New Member

    A DA like this one might conceivably be of use to community college instructors in humanities subjects who are looking for an upgrade degree that they can complete from wherever they happen to be located.

    I agree that this H-M DA is unlikely to be viable in competitive hiring situations at conventional 4-year universities and (especially) at doctoral-research universities. (Unless the individual with the degree was perceived as truly outstanding in some other way.)

    Of course, many distance learning doctoral degrees will likely suffer from similar defects. It isn't a function of the degree program's accreditor so much as it's a function of these programs' lack of scholarly and research reputations.
     
  3. Ted Heiks

    Ted Heiks Moderator and Distinguished Senior Member

    And do you have any evidence to support these charges?
     
  4. Maniac Craniac

    Maniac Craniac Moderator Staff Member

    :rofl: This is the funniest thing I've read in a long time on this site or otherwise.
     
  5. sickburn

    sickburn New Member

    Others have stated on this board that HMU is non-profit. On their website HMU does not make any claims that it is a non-profit.

    According to the Arizona Corporation Comission website HMU is indeed a for-profit:
    Ariz. Corp. Comm. -- Corporations Division

    The corporation type is listed as "BUSINESS," elsewhere on the ACC website they specify that business means, just like it says, a for-profit.

    HMU is interesting in this regard because they do not seem to be marketing themselves much at all. On that link you can view their filings but the scans are so poor they are unreadable. I wonder how much 'profit' HMU actually makes. Not much, I am guessing - and I don't think that making a ton of money is their aim. So why not incorporate as a non-profit?
     
  6. lawrenceq

    lawrenceq Member

    Thanks!

    I'm looking at HMU's Masters in Natural Science program. I wonder if I can teach with this degree? :sasmokin:
     
  7. Jonathan Whatley

    Jonathan Whatley Well-Known Member

    This isn't a thread about "most people pursuing DETC Masters and Doctorates."

    It's a thread where, to follow up on a valued OP interested in the Great Books Doctor of Arts from HMU, we considered its value as a professional credential for teachers at various levels. HMU itself bills the Doctor of Arts as a "professional" degree whose objectives include preparing "master teacher."

    I disagree that we should have avoided or shut down discussion of that subject because of what the larger population of "most people pursuing DETC Masters and Doctorate" are interested in.

    Do you think that it follows from the fact that students in the larger population – the whole population pursuing master's and doctorates from DETC schools – are unlikely to be interested in teaching, that prospective students for the Great Books DA are unlikely to be interested in teaching? So much so that it's off point to the Great Books DA, a "straw man," to talk about it? Even while HMU itself puts professional application and teaching outfront as shown?

    I agree. But it doesn't follow that she suddenly lost interest in teaching and that the prospect of teaching work no longer matters to her.
     
  8. Jonathan Whatley

    Jonathan Whatley Well-Known Member

    I just wanted to address the point made most strongly by Bill Dayson about pursuing education for intrinsic, personal interest, where the value in the employment market of any credentials attached is of little or no importance.

    Bill, I admire the work you do carrying the torch on these boards for education – formal and informal – for personal interest. We all benefit from it.

    The HMU DA is a unique, compelling, potentially great fit for someone up for pursuing a personal interest in the Great Books and related humanities, though a surely intense graduate course of study, with a culminating contribution to scholarship.

    And it's very possible that an HMU DA inquirer has only intrinsic motivations with no thought of any use towards employment.

    But would it be fair to anyone to assume that an inquirer fits this profile? Especially when HMU describes this as a professional degree, etc.

    Thinking that an inquirer about the HMU DA might well be interested in teaching work shouldn't, at all, indicate unfriendliness to the personal-interest side of learning. I hope very much that it hasn't.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Mar 25, 2014
  9. Rich Douglas

    Rich Douglas Well-Known Member

    I hate to disagree, but seriously, the accreditation source is a key factor to the acceptability of the degree when considering university teaching. People with NA degrees (almost?) never get academic roles requiring a doctorate. This isn't the case with RA DL schools, many of whom see their graduates in such roles. No, those RA DL doctoral degrees are not designed for that, certainly. But they'll do in a pinch. If a school wants someone bad enough, that RA DL degree eliminates a disqualifying element. The NA DL doctorate does not. Ever.
     
  10. Rich Douglas

    Rich Douglas Well-Known Member

    Yes, you can. In any situation where you can teach without it. Street corners. Public parks. Even the library. (Keep your voice down.)
     
  11. Rich Douglas

    Rich Douglas Well-Known Member

    Totally agree. I'm reminded of something John Bear once wrote. One can go many places to get an education, but one goes to a university to get a degree. Yes, the HMU DA is intriguing as an intellectual pursuit. So would a structured foray into a university library. The distinguishing difference? The former involves getting a degree. Because of that, the function of a degree becomes key to the discussion. And the functionality of this particular degree becomes even more relevant. To wit:

    -- The DA is a degree designed to prepare one for teaching an academic discipline.
    -- HMU makes a point of this as a selling point for getting that degree.
    -- Teaching with an NA degree is severely limited.
    -- This board is about earning degrees via DL. Thus,
    -- A discussion about the utility of this degree towards achieve its own stated purposes is highly relevant

    Sure, someone--including the OP--might want to pursue said degree solely for the learning, with no intention of using the degree. Fine. Then let him/her say that up front and we can discuss the efficacy of the learning offered, rather than the degree awarded. But until then, the degree is certainly worth discussing.
     
  12. BillDayson

    BillDayson New Member

    That might arguably be true when it comes to temporary adjunct teaching gigs in high-demand subjects at low-end schools.

    But when it comes to more conventional full-time faculty hiring, I don't think that accreditation is all that important. What is important is the doctoral program's reputation in its field, and perhaps more importantly, its reputation in the particular specialty that a candidate is being hired to teach and/or research.

    My paradigmatic example of this is Rockefeller University in New York City. This school isn't RA, instead it's accredited by the NY state Board of Regents. That makes it 'NA', I guess. But despite its not being regionally accredited, its graduates seemingly experience no difficulty finding tenure-track positions at very prestigious institutions. Some do pretty well for themselves, for example, this guy:

    David Baltimore | www.bbe.caltech.edu

    My point is that if a doctoral program can establish itself as a peer among the leaders in its field, then it won't really matter a whole lot to employers what its accreditation happens to be.

    On the other hand, if a doctoral program is totally unknown, with no academic reputation at all, then its being regionally accredited won't magically overcome those deficiencies and make it competitive.

    I think that we can agree that H-M isn't a prominent program in its academic space. Most scholars in the humanities have probably never heard of it. It's small and it doesn't seem to have a scholarly reputation in anything.

    And that's its real problem. I'm inclined to think that's probably a more important datum for prospective students to consider than merely the fact that it's accredited by DETC. If H-M was perceived as being an academic peer with UCLA or something, even in one single specialty niche area, then its DETC accreditation thing wouldn't be tremendously important. Employers would already be acquainted with the program.

    Ever? The fact that over the years Degreeinfo's seen many professors sporting totally non-accredited doctorates suggests that oftentimes just about anything can get by in non-competitive hiring situations where the employer already knows the individual that he/she wants to hire.
     
  13. sanantone

    sanantone Well-Known Member

    That doesn't make it NA at all. National accreditors accredit schools across the country. I would assume that most organizations don't know about state accreditation. Heck, I didn't even know about it until I read the San Antonio Police Department's accreditation requirements for educational incentive pay. They will only accept regional and state accreditation. State accrediting boards are listed as RA by the federal government.
    http://www.ope.ed.gov/accreditation/agencies.aspx
     
  14. novadar

    novadar Member

    Huh? I am confused by your post. The very link you provided shows the "New York State Board of Regents, and the Commissioner of Education" under the "Nationally Recognized Accrediting Agencies" section. Does that not mean the Dept of Education would regard a Rockefeller degree as being "Nationally Accredited".
     
  15. freddyboy

    freddyboy Member


    That's interesting. The good folks at the San Antonio Police Dept need to update their educational policies. DETC and other national accreditation bodies are endorsed and formally recognized by the Texas Higher Education Coordination Board. If Texas recognizes DETC accreditation, why doesn't a Texas city government?
     
  16. novadar

    novadar Member

    This good Doctor is also a former President of Cal Tech and more impressively a Nobel Prize Winner {1975 - Nobel Prize in Physiology or Medicine}.

    He received his PhD from Rockefeller in 1960 (with only an RA BA prior). Cool! Perhaps he is an anomaly but dang if that does not speak volumes for an "NA" degree's utility.
     
  17. Ed Edwards

    Ed Edwards Member

    This is completely 100% incorrect.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Mar 25, 2014
  18. SteveFoerster

    SteveFoerster Resident Gadfly Staff Member

    Just to address this narrow point, this is a community, not a hive. Some people here have more of that "Ralph Nader" attitude that often accompanies the word "consumer", while others probably are openly fans of particular schools, accrediting organizations, distance learning in general, or what have you. It's from our differences that this community is made more interesting, not less useful.
     
  19. Jonathan Whatley

    Jonathan Whatley Well-Known Member

    I agree enthusiastically.
     
  20. sanantone

    sanantone Well-Known Member

    Sorry. I missed that LOL. The other state agencies, including one in NY, are listed as RA.
    No, it is not 100% incorrect. All but one state agency is listed as RA.
     
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