Scups accreditation

Discussion in 'General Distance Learning Discussions' started by JK60, Oct 18, 2013.

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  1. JK60

    JK60 New Member

    I graduated with a BBA from SCUPS in 1996. I was given the impression that SCUPS had some form of accreditation during the time I was a student. 17 years have passed since receiving my diploma and I would like some closure. Is SCUPS accredited or not? If not, is my degree of any value and worth mentioning when applying for employment and organizations? I would appreciate an up-to-date reply if you can share any information on this subject. Thank you.
     
  2. Kizmet

    Kizmet Moderator

    Last edited by a moderator: Oct 18, 2013
  3. Ted Heiks

    Ted Heiks Moderator and Distinguished Senior Member

    If you graduated from SCUPS in pre-accreditation days, your degree remains unaccredited.
     
  4. TEKMAN

    TEKMAN Semper Fi!

    Your degree at the time was approved by the state of California. If this is the only Bachelor degree you have, then you could list it. Because it is not illegal to use unaccredited degree, but it is illegal to use degree mill. If you have more than two Bachelor degrees, then omit it from your resume.
     
  5. Johann

    Johann Well-Known Member

    Not that simple. It depends where you are and what use you're making of it...

    Otherwise, TEKMAN is 100% correct. SCUPS did indeed have California State approval when the OP graduated -- and that's all it ever had! And State Approval, as we've said a million times, is not accreditation. In 2004, SCUPS actually failed in an attempt to get DETC accreditation. It eventually changed its name and "Cal Southern" finally got the DETC sprinkling of Holy Water in 2010.

    As I see it, SCUPS was occasionally given to umm... sharp practice, to say the least, in its marketing. You can ask Dr. Bear about that, some time. For a moment, I found it a little difficult to understand how the OP was "given an impression" of some sort of accreditation, without any backup.

    Then I remembered - this is SCUPS we're discussing. :sad: Sometimes, they'd do/say/write almost anything to make a sale.

    Johann
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Oct 18, 2013
  6. Delta

    Delta Active Member

    I would put California southern university on my CV because of the schools name change. You graduated a state approved school that became accredited and changed names. I was able to have the school I went to reissue a new diploma with the schools new name for $10. I wonder if they'll do the same for you?
     
  7. Johann

    Johann Well-Known Member

    Ted said it best. Delta, I'm assuming your degree was from a school that was accredited before the name-change. The SCUPS degree was earned at an unaccredited school. No school should allow it to be papered over and magically become accredited - or even accredited-looking, for any sum. That would be reprehensible in the extreme -as I see it, anyway. The degree is what it is. State approved - unaccredited. I suggest, JK60, that you use it according to your local rules -and I suggest also that you don't put California Southern on your resume. That would be a falsehood. That is an accredited school that didn't even open its doors until years after you graduated from SCUPS. It had ZERO grads in the year you graduated from SCUPS. What do you think California Southern would have to say, if someone checked?

    I'm not suggesting SCUPS was a degree mill. It wasn't. At least I don't think it was. I still have a SCUPS catalog somewhere, from the late 80s - but I bit the financial bullet and went to B&M Canadian schools (at night) instead. If I may make a somewhat unwholesome analogy -- saying you graduated from California Southern is as dishonest as a Barrington U. grad saying he graduated from University of Atlanta. Barrington was an unaccredited school of low calibre that was bought, "rebranded" as U. of Atlanta and DETC-accredited. (It has since relinquished that accreditation.) My point is - a Barrington grad is not a U. of A. grad simply because the name changed. Neither is a SCUPS grad a Cal Southern grad, even though SCUPS was (as I see it) light-years ahead of Barrington.

    JK60, What you MIGHT be able to do is this - and I have no idea if you'd want to. Use it to sign on for a RA grad degree at NorthCentral University, Prescott AZ. SCUPS and NCU were under the same ownership. SCUPS was regarded by some as a "feeder" school for NCU, which accepted SCUPS degrees at par, even though NCU is RA and SCUPS was unaccredited. I don't know if the provision is still in effect or not.

    Of course, I have no idea whether you want to earn another degree -- and NCU is fairly expensive and a bit controversial. It takes some hits in the various degree fora - that's for sure. But nobody should be allowed to paper the SCUPS degree over into an accredited (or even accredited-looking) degree. Nope - nobody.

    Johann
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Oct 20, 2013
  8. Rich Douglas

    Rich Douglas Well-Known Member

    This is a complicated subject with few available axioms. Here's a few possible ones:

    -- Degrees issued by schools before they were accredited are technically from unaccredited schools.

    -- Employers don't know that and don't check.

    -- Degrees from schools issued prior to accreditation often get treated as if they came from an accredited school. Ask yourself, if you were a CCU grad from its unaccredited days, wouldn't it make you glad to see that CCU eventually became accredited, even though (technically) it didn't include your degree? I bet that's a big old "yes."

    -- When a school changes names, it leaves graduates in a lurch. Do you use the current name or the original one? Again, the technical answer is to use the original one. But this raises problems. If employers check on the status of your school and can't find it, it creates a larger problem--and gap with the truth--than using the new name. Tough call. You can use the original name and reference the new one, but....

    -- Is there continuity from old to new? A good way to test this is to see if the new school still issues transcripts for grads of the old one. (Excelsior, for example, still issues transcripts for grads of USNY/Regents.) This is complicated when there has been ownership change. To cite another example beyond the ones already given, do graduates of Pacific Western University get to glom on to California Miramar (and its DETC accreditation)? Probably not.

    Was there a change of ownership and/or continuity from SCUPS to CSU? Does CSU claim the SCUPS legacy? (Yes and no, btw.) Can you reference both when listing your degree?

    There are no pat answers here. But if it feels wrong, it probably is.
     
  9. Delta

    Delta Active Member

    The degree was issued "pre-accreditation" that sounds better than unaccredited. The fact is, if it wasn't for all the pre accredited work done by its students, the school never would have become accredited in the first place! It's up to you but if they issue you a new diploma with the name change then why not get one? You still mention the graduation date and are not hiding anything and you can always mention it was issued pre-accreditation! Will the same school accept you for a graduate degree program?
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Oct 20, 2013
  10. Johann

    Johann Well-Known Member

    Good example -- and I'd say most certainly not. Just the way I see it. I think the DETC would have a complete hissy-fit, if Cal. Miramar was seen to facilitate this in any way! I think so because Pacific Western was in very poor repute - I see the contrast with the "rebranded" Cal. Miramar as far greater than between SCUPS and Cal Southern - but the principle applies.

    Well, could that last part indicate just how Cal. Southern might feel about any endorsement or "re-printing" of a SCUPS diploma? :smile:

    I'll go with that. It feels wrong to me, but that's just my take. It doesn't mean it's wrong for everybody, I guess. And even if something feels wrong, people still do it anyway. So... not my degree, not my business, I suppose.

    JK60, it's your degree and we've all said our piece. Do as you see fit, I guess. Peace.

    Johann
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Oct 20, 2013
  11. Rich Douglas

    Rich Douglas Well-Known Member

    CSU's website claims the SCUPS legacy: CalSouthern History - California Southern University

    They omit some things and soft-sell some others.

    Given this, I'm certain they still issue SCUPS transcripts. It would be interesting to see if they make some sort of notation on the transcript citing the accreditation date. This would be a simple way for them to make the distinction.
     
  12. Delta

    Delta Active Member

    Yes! I believe your degree is of "value and worth"! Some will disagree with me but the fact that your school obtained national accreditation increases the "perceived value" to you as an alumnus. That is my opinion and only have anecdotal evidence of perceived values of college degrees gaining value as schools go through the process of unaccredited to accredited colleges to accredited universities. Certainly nothing to be ashamed of!
     
  13. Johann

    Johann Well-Known Member

    Agreed. I believe A SCUPS degree has value and is "certainly nothing to be ashamed of."

    But:

    (a) It is NOT from an Accredited school - it is from the never-accredited predecessor school
    (b) It is not a CSU degree - and I don't think CSU will say it is.

    I'm sure Rich is right - and CSU DOES issue SCUPS transcripts. And I think they should (and most probably will) say SCUPS on them somewhere, in prominent lettering. Diplomas? I doubt they'd issue a CSU diploma. You can always ask. I still think that would be very wrong - for them, not necessarily for you.

    I'm not knocking your SCUPS degree, JK60. Such degrees were State-Approved and - as I see it - from one of the better, successful schools of that type. I do think, however, that the school sometimes used improper marketing techniques. (Dr. John Bear has a good story he's told about SCUPS in that regard!) Then again, I think many schools are guilty of marketing sharp-practice or worse, be they RA, NA or unaccredited - or even Canadian, for that matter! :smile:

    ...and that has nothing to do with the value of their degrees.

    Johann
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Oct 20, 2013
  14. SteveFoerster

    SteveFoerster Resident Gadfly Staff Member

    Rightfully or wrongfully, schools that change names often will send alumni from the period of the old name a replacement diploma with the new name and sometimes explicitly authorize alumni to refer to the new name on their resumes, etc. No idea whether that's the case here, I'm just saying if it is it's not unprecedented.
     
  15. IrishJohn

    IrishJohn New Member

    This is probably a crazy idea but can he use the SCUPS degree for another one through Cal Southern?
     
  16. Delta

    Delta Active Member

    That's what I was implying. An unaccredited bachelor degree holder goes to get a masters at the same school that is now nationally accredited then transfers into a HETA affiliated school that is regionally accredited for a regionally accredited doctorate. Amazing!

    I also know a person who holds a foreign bachelor degree, earned a Masters degree from an unaccredited school that latter became accredited. Got accepted to a RA PhD program and graduated.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Oct 21, 2013
  17. Kizmet

    Kizmet Moderator

    The fact is that you don't need a Masters degree to apply to a Doctoral program. So, it's quite possible that your friend gained admission to that Doctoral program despite the unaccredited Masters, not because of it.
     
  18. SteveFoerster

    SteveFoerster Resident Gadfly Staff Member

    That's true. So the real question is whether this person got advanced standing or not.
     
  19. Delta

    Delta Active Member


    I just went and checked the website, you are correct it only mentions a Bachelor degree for admission to the PhD program..I always thought one needed a masters degree but not the case! It will still be interesting to see if California Southern University accepts its former 'unaccredited" graduates to their now accredited graduate programs. If they deny admission, it validates the fact that the degree may be deemed to be of "less value".
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Oct 21, 2013
  20. Rich Douglas

    Rich Douglas Well-Known Member

    Traditionally, one enters a Ph.D. program with a bachelor's and sometimes--but not always--earns a master's along the way. Also, a master's can be the consolation award for a failed Ph.D.

    In the UK. students are often admitted to the MPhil first, then advanced to the DPhil (Ph.D.) after a year or so of successful study and research. If they're not advanced, they finish out their studies and take the MPhil.

    But so many people went to graduate school to get a master's with no intention of getting a Ph.D., it got a life of its own. Now, some Ph.D. programs require a master's for entry, while some others--as Steve and Kizmet point out--allow entry for bachelor's holders but give advance standing for master's holders. (If you don't have a master's, you do essentially an equivalent one along the way. If you want the degree, some schools require a thesis at that level.)

    We see a lot of modern, nontraditional schools require the master's for entry. I like this. It's a long way from B.A. to Ph.D., and it's hard to predict who will make it. Taking in master's holders makes admissions a bit more precise, I'd say.
     

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