Thesis only:Who finishes?

I am completing my second masters thesis. The amount of time it takes is far out of proportion to 3 semester units (I estimate that I spent more than 200 hours on each of my theses. I have seen students just give up upon experiencing the time and expenses - it's ashame to see someone complete 33 out of 36 units then quit.
I think I would have learned more by taking additional classes in lieu of a thesis.

 

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Yep! 200 hrs to do a Master's thesis does seem pretty quick. I'm certainly not one of those guys who could do one in a weekend, and I have a fair amount of knowledge and writing experience in my field too.

 

Re: Abusive Committee Members

My dissertation experience with the Nova program was a good one. The key was to find faculty that were interested in your dissertation topic. Responses were timely. Students that languished were typically those that:

1.) Could not produce a decent proposal in order to move on.

2.) Would get started and then procrastinate. By the time they were ready to crank up their dissertation effort a year or two may have passed and the topic was already done by someone else or the faculty were no longer interested in supporting it.

If you have a solid idea on the dissertation early in the program I found that focusing the research done for course practicums and projects would allow for an early and informal start on your dissertation research. It would insure that you were keeping up with the literature and have a good body of information to work with going into the dissertation rather than starting from scratch.

After completing my 2 years of coursework the dissertation process took me another 18 months to complete. I remember the day well when my dissertation was finally approved and all had signed and I was done. I was sitting in my office when the phone rang. When I answered someone asked if Dr. Wetsch was there. I said, "who?" It was my advisor calling to give me the news.

I thoroughly enjoyed the Nova experience. Going to the main campus every three months was always interesting. It was a 12 hr. drive (the driving did get old) from Raleigh and I would usually leave at midnight and get to Ft. Lauderdale by Noon the next day and get to my hotel, check in, get a few winks of sleep, and then go to the Friday evening session, followed by the all day Saturday session, a morning Sunday session and getting out of Ft. Lauderdale by around Noon on Sunday. I would be back in Raleigh typically between midnight and 1:00 AM so I could get up for work the next day.

The first year of the Nova program was probably the most trying. It was adjusting to the discipline of using most spare moments to work on the degree, family support as to the commitment, and the travel. I almost dropped after the first year because work and school seemed to be too much but once I got into a routine perseverence prevailed.

John

 

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John

I think that you and everyone else who works and has other responsibilities as you did deserves a lot of respect for being determined enough to finish a doctorate.

 

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Amen! Very inspiring Dr. Wetsch.

As I sit and do research papers and feel the creep of carpal tunnel syndrome I have to remind myself occasionally that I need to persist in order to a) finish a goal and b) utilize my GI Bill prior to it expiring. There are times when I think there are a number of other things I could be doing without constraints of time and other parameters.

I am not comparing my program to Dr. Wetsch' nor my situation. I am unlucky enough to be sans family and so just have weekly visitation and at that there are some nights where I do not feel invigorated for study after working intensely all day. However, when I did my Masters I had a family, work, long hours, and that was stressful and I did not even have to drive the distance of Dr. W. At any rate, good job. It is that persistence thing again.

What is your doctorate in Dr. Wetsch.


North

 

The doctoral process in Australia also seems to be a horror story. As I was interested in doing a PhD, I spoke to most academics in my faculty about their doctoral experience and have yet to hear a positive one. It seems that the doctoral process is more about a rite of passage than a logical process. I've heard more than one professor say that they make it difficult for their doctoral students because they had it difficult doing their PhDs. I remember seeing some statistics showing only a 30% completion rate of doctoral programs in Australia.

Interestingly, the Australian Government used to fund universities for each year they had a doctoral student enroled. I understand that now the funding (approx. $50,000) is given on completion of the PhD. I hope that helps to change the culture and encourages professors to be more supportive and encouraging.

 

Re: Re: Re: Doctoral Jerk-Around

Russell,
I hope your power point certificate has been useful in producing some GREAT sermon helps.

Steven King

 

Reaction

I enjoyed "drwetsch's" story. I also noted with interest the change in Australia as reported here. This might focus people on helping students graduate. I have no problem whatsoever with academic rigor. I try to apply that to the courses I teach at my community college and I think I am successful. When I was in a doctoral program it was quite clear to me that my presence or absence meant nothing to the professors there. I have also heard nothing but horror stories from even those that finished a doctorate. I always had difficulty understanding what much of this had to do with the education of doctoral scholars. I'm glad there are Nova's, Walden's, and Capella's out there now.

Not to take away anything that anybody here earned, but I've thought another question might be is a doctorate really REALLY necessary in many cases? I've challenged many of my fellow faculty at the community college not to automatically think doctorate when wanting to move up the salary scale. If you want a tenured shot in a university, absolutely you need a doctorate. Maybe for credibility for some consulting. Beyond that, why? I am so thankful that distance learning is around NOW. Last year I completed an Ed.S. in instructional technology from Valdosta State University online. That was far and away better than all that doctoral work I did at a university headquartered in Tucson, Arizona (hint, hint). I had my advisor for a class early in the program (we were in cohorts which work quite nicely in online programs). He was pretty hard on me. I dreaded finding out he would supervise my Ed.S. thesis. He was on me from day one. But he didn't quit on me and I didn't quit on him. We both dragged each other over the finish line and I am grateful to him for that. Now, I wonder how that would have been for a doctorate but I suspect Valdosta State is breaking out of the old-line way of thinking and would be more supportive than the more traditional schools I had attended up to that point. Have you noticed the most interesting online programs are coming from smaller schools like Valdosta and Morehead State (where I am completing an MBA online)? Arizona and Arizona State, for instance, do not have a CLUE about online learning. So much of that is rooted in the "if I didn't invent it, it must not be very good" syndrome. I so enjoy it when I get brochures from those outfits claiming expertise in online learning! What I’ve seen is they might have a guy with “Ph.D.” after his name that says, “LOOK AT ME! I’m AN EXPERT!” What a hoot! And without online learning I would have no other choice than to accept the local school's programs. With online learning programs, I have a real choice. Dang, ain't it grand!? I am no longer stuck with "take the classes when we want to offer them, where we want to offer them" attitudes. I can travel the world from my own desktop. Gee, I sound like a commercial. We live in a wonderous time, do we not?!

 

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Thanks for the comments. My Ph.D. is in information systems.

John

 

The athlete!

I have posted here before about doing a doctorate. It is, generally, and for most people, a 'slog'! That is waht it is meant to be. That was my own experience. After I had collected all my field data I can remember sitting in my office asking myself what I was now going to do with it all. By the way, I completed my PhD as a part-time candidate. It took me 5 years. You have to be like a good athlete. To go that one step further to be really good you have to train and train and train again (even when you don't want to do so) and train at times that get in the way for family, friends, work colleagues and so on. This is part of the 'struggle'. I recall going to see my supervisors at his house one Sunday evening. He threw my final chapter back at me over the kitechen table and told me that if I thought I was going to get a PhD with this I was kidding myself. He actually had gone too far and that was not what I wanted to hear. I went home and the next day got the train to London and spent three days there just clearing my head. Meanwhile, my supervisor and another colleague visited my house during the time I was away. He realized he had gone over the top. He never actually apologized but when I got back he started to offer advice as to how I could make the chapter right. I also had a second supervisor who had left the institution and was'nt over bothered any more. I phoned him and he gave me some excellent advice because he knew exactly what my first supervisor was like! Within one week I'd got the whole things sorted and the thesis was subkitted for external examination! During my last year prior to submitting my thesis I worked every single weekend, sometimes achieving very little. A colleague then told me that he set aside from 4.30-6.30pm EVERY DAY when he was doing his PhD (the timings can be different of course) and tried to write 1,200 words each day. That actually doesn't seem a great deal - but it is!

I try to treat my own candidates differently but we are all human and there are days when I think a piece of work is a 'load of rubbish' and then when I go back the second or third time to read it I am more constructive!

My recently graduated student in Singapore is a case in point. I mentioned this before, so will be brief. Much depends on the individual person and it is possible to complete everything 'at-a-distance'. In this student's case his decision to visit me in the Uk paid dividends. We spent one day together and that face-to-face encounter made all the different for both of us. Likewise, before his viva voce (oral defence) examination. He came to the UK two or thyree days early and we had a 'mock' viva. I conducted it with a colleague and we put him through a defence examinbation that lasted three hours! It paid off! Some of the questions we'd posed and he did not answer adequately were raised at the real viva! We had been able to explain to him before hand the sort of response he needed to give should such questions arise in the real viva. 'This' and 'that' is life!

telfax

 

Very interesting, and scary, stories. These demonstrate I think some of the factors which increase the odds for success: a good supervisor, supportive family, interest in the topic, determination. What I have valued in these posts is the ability of human nature to overcome obstacles. My respect to all who finish graduate degrees.

 

Thank you!

Thank you Bill. I don't know hwether it was you or someone else. Someone posted the notion that if a person is doing a doctprate in religion/theology it would be easier because the faculty are likely ro be 'religious'/'ordained' and would therefore treat people more gently/humanely! Don't ever believe it! Theology faculty can be some of the most sarcastic, demanding and petty individuals (ordained clergy often) you can imagine - in my experience in the UK! telfax

 

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Yes, That was I who so posted. I'll have a chance to see if that generalization will be fulfilled as I in two weeks submit the first
of ten chapters to my supervisor. Here's hoping it won't!

 

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Telfax,

You may not have my birth denomination in mind but such a comment reminds me of some of the Anglican clergy I have met who are liberal and rather arrogant about their perspective being the only logical perspective. Bishop Spong a case in point. A conservative priest once told me about the politics behind some of the groups set up to review candidates for offices such as deacon and priest. The majority on the group were liberal and that meant conservative candidates had a reather difficult time. He said he once had to stand up for a candidate who the committee was bad mouthing because of his beliefs about abortion (he was against it).

I realize this is somewhat off topic but it came to mind in terms of your comments about pettiness.

I remember a series I used to enjoy called *Bless Me father*. It was a comedy about a young curate in England in the 50's (?). The older RC priest used to have some interesting conversations with the local cigarrette smoking and liberal Anglican vicar.

North

 

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I had such kind supervisors in the Western ThM program. When it came time to defend the thesis I was really ready to do that. Even though neither prof agreed with my conclusions they aced me on the defense and thesis. Then the New Testament prof asked me to read and translate from the Greek text. I rattled that off pretty well. But when he started asking about some grammaticisms I showed ignorance. When the other prof asked me some particulars of past coursework my memory wasn't too good either. They sent me out of the room and huddled. Emerging they gave me a pass. I really felt, and yet do eight years later , that I had let them down.

 

Discussion this past week.....

In these days of modern technology so many people think that the study iof teligion is meaingless. My nep[hen has decided to go to university to reasd religious studies. The family think he is 'daft'! They think he is going to be ordained. Whether he ir ordained or notr reallty doesn't matter (I donlt think he will be). He wants to study religion for iuts own sake. He is extremely gfood at languages and will, I hope make a good student. For the academic purists he will be a God-send! He is good at Latin and Green and, I am sure, will pick up Old Testament Hebrew and other Middle Eastern languages at a drop of a hat! Therein lies my full support for this young man who is 19 years old! He needs not just to be a student of theology and rteligious studies. He needs to be a very good linguist, an historian, a student of literarure and poetry and so I could go on. The real academic study of religion (aside from doctrinal seminary positions) requires academic skills that equal (and in my view go beyond) those of science. A 'true' religious scholasr has to be a linguist, historian, archaeologist, a student of literature and poetry and so I could go on..... What better trainign could anyonehave for a job in 'the real world'!

telfax