It appears there will be no Health Care..........

Not really sure how it is my -or any other tax payers- responsibility to pay for someone's healthcare. Typically when people are in a certain position it is their life choices that put them there. As such, I don't feel bad when an adult doesn't have healthcare. When I originally moved to Boston and was looking for work I refused the state run healthcare plan that they mandate. I went 90-days without health insurance purely on principal. My penalty, a whopping $35 fine (which they just deducted from my tax refund). Healthcare is not a right.

In regards to news outlets, Fox News certainly leans right, but all the others lean heavily to the left so I feel like they are providing some balance. And the lochness monster story? I didn't read it, but I would venture to bet that they picked it up from the AP. I doubt they sent their own reporter out to cover that. Just a hunch, maybe I'm wrong. All news outlets carry ridiculous stories. Give me a news outlet, I'll find you something absurd on their website.

 

Because we are a community a family and family takes care of those in need? Oddly that is how most nations in our peer group see it and Germany had national health care the longest and it was started by Bismark on capitalist grounds. Healthy citizens were better workers and if war came would be more fit to fight over a sicker population and they do have mandates and seem to have found that balance to meet the fundamental needs of citizens and commerce.

And the energency room only must treat you if your in a life endangering medical condition under law, if its not an emergency you have to pay up front in many cases.

And look at the economy its not always a persons fault lets say they are working and for simple facts can't earn a bachelors degree or seek specialized training, maybe they are not good in school but at other things making them a great masseuse earning $25k a year with a preexisting condition say diabetes and can't make enough to buy and use insurance. Is it their fault? Lets make them a Type II fit diabetic who has a family predispostion to the disease and they got it anyway.

You say scre em let them rot. I say they work and are a citizen so should have access to affordable insurance and medical care but they should pay something. That is what many nations do the person if they work pay in an amount and the government backs them up as needed so they can get the care they need. Then staying healthier they work longer, better, are productive and don't become a burden on the state in a serious way.

 

I worked for a 15 employee company whose profits deteriorated for a year or so then went out of business.. I moved to a big company to get health insurance but several people I had worked with (low skilled people) had a tough time finding jobs with insurance or finding health insurance because of prior conditions.

By the way a large percentage of the USA work force has govt funded health care include non-govt businesses that mostly work on local, state or federal govt contracts. All my working life I have worked on DOD or NASA contracts and part of those contracts paid my health care. After starting my own consulting business (I still work govt contracts) so part of that income paid for my $900/month health insurance.

 

You think we're a "family"? That may be the dumbest thing I've ever heard. We're citizens of the same country, that doesn't mean I have to pay for someone because they made piss poor life choices and now are incapable of taking care of themselves. I realize on occasion, maybe 5% of the time, there are extenuating circumstances and I feel for those people, but guess what? Life isn't easy and it isn't always fair, doesn't mean you need to be a leach on society. Healthcare isn't a right. Now I believe children should be covered, it isn't their fault their parents are screw ups that shouldn't have started a family, but if you're an adult you should take care of yourself.

Seriously, you bring up Germany? Do you know how much money citizens of Germany pay in taxes? The healthcare they are mandated to carry is insanely expensive, if I remember correctly it is a set percentage of their income (I believe 12%). I had this conversation with a German citizen last year, based on my income I would pay an absurd monthly amount for the right to healthcare that is substandard to the coverage I have now. Currently I pay about $800/yr for my healthcare, under Germany's plan I'd pay nearly $10,000/yr and i'd have to wait months to see a specialist, how is that fair to me?

To your point about not seeking an education or specialized training, the government has established enough programs that if you choose to not receive some form of specialized training it's your own damn fault. I hate when people say they couldn't afford to go to college. That's BS, the government will give you a loan adequate to cover tuition at a state school or community college + room and board. It's strictly a case of someone being lazy and not wanting to do the work.

You're absolutely right, someone makes poor choices, idosay let them rot and I won't apologize for it. I've busted my ass to get where I am, and now you want me to pay for free loaders to get a benefit I receive because I worked for it my entire life. I did the right things, they did the wrong things and there are consequences to those decisions.

 

You comment made me think about a very depressing event I saw unfold. I remember a guy who had his own business and made good money, up until he got sick. He got cancer tumors all over his body, and even though he had insurance, it capped out leaving him homeless and destitute. He said goodbye to me one last time, and that was the last I saw of him. He decided he was just going to live under a bridge and let the cancer consume him, and it did. Sad.

There has to be a better way.

Abner

 

It's not always about poor choices. Socioeconomic factors come into play. Also genetic factors.

Oh, you are born with a genetic disease? Sucks to be you, freeloader!

Born to an economically disadvantaged family in an area with poor school districts and little opportunity to get a decent job? Sucks to be you! (and, no, you can't move to another area to get a better job when you don't have resources)


It's not really that big of a deal anyway. Before long (if economic trends continue), you will just be taxed into oblivion because you will be dramatically outnumbered.

 

And...with the idea of paying for the welfare of others...

Why don't we just ban all police forces? The wealthy better hope they can afford some mercenaries.

 

As a healthcare provider, I have to agree that providing numerous options for birth control prevents unwanted pregnancies in the first place. Its sadly ironic that these same opponents in their self righteous cause/actions may ultimately be the cause of even more abortions!

 

You make statements like this for what? To prove a point? Just ridiculous. I'd be happy to have a debate with you on the merits (or lack there of) of these social programs you seem to love so much but when you post ignorant drivel like that you are essentially admitting that you have no logical argument.
In response to your comment, I understand the need for taxes and I have no problem with my tax dollars going to pay police/fire fighters/teachers. I think they are all underpaid and wouldn't be opposed to a tax increase in order to pay them more. I do have a problem with an increase in my taxes to expand social programs that primarily benefit people that refuse to be accountable. And these same programs the extreme progressive left loves so much are the same programs that are bankrupting half the countries in Europe. Every Western European country that has held an election in the past 12 months has elected governments further to the right specifically because the left and their excessive entitlement programs have created the economic crisis in the EU. And now these progressives in the US want to drive us directly down the path that Europe is running away from because those policies are fundamentally flawed.
I just think people should be accountable, it's how I was raised. This is America, youre entitled to your opinion, just please know that your opinion is wrong.

 

How many people there would give up the health coverage or in fact in any major nation that has a universal program? True they may bitch about it that is what citizens of a nation do but when the its an option of take it away or not the people will vote for keeping it.

And if one major epidemic broke out the poor would not seek medical care and could give it to you for lack of funds, I know until I couldn't breath or was coughing up blood would I go to the ER and I'm not alone. I would use history to support that in every case the poor get it, spread it and give it to wealthy people sooner or later.

As for my own damned fault I ,due to lack of natural aptitude not lack of effort in school, never could learn basic algebra or geometry, and I worked hard to get it. What specialized field can I train for that pays a living wage and would give health benefits since I'm also disabled enough to make some jobs impractical. Nursing? Business Management? Teaching? I looked at them all this pesky math limitation is not suitable for most trendy jobs. And then I would go into debt if I did take out these loans would I be assured a job? Why do you think poor people don't go to school ending up with a debt scares me to no end I may be poor but I'm debt free. Why take the risk the time to train the poor in in K-12 when there is no debts built up and that is passe'.

And calling a comment "dumb" just because you don't agree I'm a Christian every person is my family friend, family member or stranger God tells me to treat them as I would myself your obviously not a person of faith like I am or are from a faith that doesn't care for others.

 

I appreciate the condescension from the high and mighty among us. /sarcasm I made the statement precisely because of your attitude toward your fellow citizens. Not everyone has made the perfect decisions and attended the elite schools. That doesn't make them less valuable or less worthy of investing resources.

Refusing to be accountable? Sure, some of them do. Others have a more fortunate raising. I'm sure you have numerous students on your campus that make unwise decisions but do not have to pay the consequences because of Daddy and/or Mommy's resources. When you are snorting coke as a young teen, your outcomes vary whether or not you are a poor kid from Detroit or a rich kid from New York. It's amazing what money can do for a legal defense.


When those with resources fall, they have family safety nets. They have friends and colleagues that can give cushy jobs to young folks right out of college. The rest of the world isn't quite so fortunate.

Yes, the social programs are bankrupting the governments over there. I don't presume that the answer is a government program for everything. I refuse, however, to descend into an automatic mode of "Blame the victim" where I assume that everything is the fault of the individual. Your postings are absolutely dripping with flawed thinking, a textbook case of fundamental attribution error.

 

In my defense, my attitude is directed at my fellow citizens that contribute nothing to this country but want tax layers to give them everything, not citizens in general. Yes, I think I am better than them. Yes, it does make them less valuable and yes, it does make them less worthy of investing resources in.

In terms of refusing to be accountable, you say some, I say most. I'd venture to bet my answer is closer to accurate an yours.

I'm not blaming the victim, as you imply. I believe I stated that we should provide health care to children (the victims). I'm blaming adults that refuse to work, then expect tax payers to foot the bill for them.

Finally, I feel as if your post is implying that me and my friends have had it easy because of my/their family's economic status. Not that it is any of your business, but I come from an middle/upper middle class family. My grandfathers were a farmer and a career army officer, respectively. My parents attended state schools. My mother worked in banking and worked her way up a VP position with what is now a nationwide bank, my father owned his own business that he built from the ground up. I was raised to have a work ethic, to not have anything handed to me. I have never been in trouble with the law so i've never had the need to be bailed out. Off the top of my head, I can't think when any of my friends have either. I attend "elite" schools based on merit and hard work, not family money. The same can be said for most students at Harvard, Vanderbilt and Auburn.

Your implication that I've gotten where I have because of my parent's resources frankly pisses me off. Not coming from money is no excuse to be a lazy POS. It's people like you that tell the less fortunate that it's okay that they are the way they are and that it's societies fault that they can't get ahead that exasperates the problem. If we'd quit supporting them a good number would likely pick themselves up. The others likely aren't worth helping. The programs you support enslave those people to government.

 

As if your background had nothing to do with your academic preparation and your work ethic? Psh.

It pisses you off because it's true. I'm not saying that you got where you are entirely through your parents' resources, but to act as if they did not play a major role is absurdity. That "merit" you talk about is in part a product of a middle-class upbringing.

I suppose you can continue to bask in your elitism all you want. Be glad that you were born into the right situation with the right genetic makeup.

I will give you credit for one thing. At least you don't pretend to care.

 

This is truly a shame. I would rather give my tax dollars toward some affordable healthcare to folks like you, rather than continuing to have my tax dollars used toward corporate welfare. Our priorities are backwards.

Abner

 

Our priorities are certainly skewed to say the least. Yet these are incredibly complex issues and in a soundbite political world politicians try to provide simple solutions that won't produce the desired result.

Clearly one of the big problems with expanding health care coverage is the supply of doctors available to see and treat x million more patients. Politicians from both sides of the aisle have advocated increasing the number of U.S. medical school graduates as a key part of the ultimate solution going forward, regardless of the insurance program or payment mechanism used. I think I first heard Mrs. Clinton talking about this in 1994. It turns out that it may not be the panacea it is widely believed to be.

Interesting article on the effects of increasing the number of U.S. medical school grads