Report from the DETC convention

Discussion in 'General Distance Learning Discussions' started by John Bear, Apr 11, 2001.

Loading...
  1. John Bear

    John Bear Senior Member

    A report from the DETC convention. This’ll be in two parts. This one is the personal stuff; later comes content-related stuff.

    It did occur to me, as I walked into the Fairmount Hotel in San Francisco, that just over a century ago, not far from that very corner, the editor of the San Francisco Chronicle, one James King-of-William, was shot dead by a reader who didn’t like what he had been writing.

    But with one exception, all the people who came up to me were very polite and cordial. And, without exception, they all were readers of this forum, although none has ever either registered or posted. Interesting, eh?

    The man from Concord University was unhappy with the forum comments about how Concord’s baby bar pass rate had declined, assured me things are on a reasonable track, and said he would supply more information on what’s going on there.

    The man from Orion College (and LaSalle University) was very upbeat about Orion’s future, and its prospects for DETC accreditation next year.

    The lady from Glenford University (Louisiana) assured me that while Glenford had gotten off to a shaky start, when she took over in January, she caused all 28 enrolled students to stop their programs, leaving zero students, which is how it will remain until more solid programs are in place, perhaps in the fall, with just one Bachelor’s degree program. The university is apparently owned or controlled by the Korean Methodist Church in New York.

    The founder of Columbia Southern University was annoyed that Bears’ Guide 14 didn’t say they were DETC-accredited--but the accreditation didn’t come until after the book was printed, and is described in the “Update” section on www.degree.net. He was also annoyed that we say in BG14 that Columbia Southern has doctoral programs. As he put it, “We ain’t offered any doctorates since 1995.” This is indeed an error on our part and will be corrected.

    The man from Western Governors University was annoyed that I have commented publicly on the very modest enrollments at WGU. He assured me that things are going well, and they have consolidated their formerly two headquarters offices in Colorado and Utah into a single one in Utah. He, incidentally, was the only person who used the “ambush interview” approach on me. Wearing no badge and not introducing himself, he asked me for my opinions on WGU, which I happily gave. And then he said, in effect, “Aha! I am from Western Governors, and . . .”

    The lady from California National University had no complaints about anything said about her school either in my book or on this forum, and just wanted to say thank you.

    And the president of American College of Computer and Information Sciences, formerly AICS, was (my interpretation) really angry with things said on the forum and by me elsewhere. She seemed especially annoyed with the suggestion that DETC did NOT take their former dreadful (my word) accreditation into account, and assured me that they did.

    The implications of this are rather staggering. I (and others here) had thought it likely that DETC did not take their highly misleading (my words) treatment of their World Association accreditation (used, I believe, until the day they announced DETC accreditation) into account, because if they had, how could they accredit them? I (and others here) had assumed that DETC accreditation was based only on their current offerings as assessed by DETC.

    So why would the president of ACCIS say, rather defiantly (my interpretation), “How do you know they didn’t take our prior accreditation into account?”

    She said this as if the former accreditation somehow helped in getting their DETC accreditation. Clearly there is more to be learned here.

    She did say that if I ever had any questions, I should come straight to her, before shooting off my mouth (my words, not hers) in forums like this. I will surely take advantage of this generous offer. Perhaps she will even respond directly on this forum.

    And she concluded by assuring me that ACCIS (and Chadwick and so on) owner Lloyd Clayton is “a wonderful, wonderful person.”
     
  2. Nicole-HUX

    Nicole-HUX New Member

    John, may I ask a favor? Although I've worked in the HUX program since January of 1998, there are a great many areas associated with distance learning about which I know little or nothing. Most of the time I can garner the meaning of the initialisms from previous posts or from context, but this time I know only that you attended a conference and are providing coverage for us through this thread. Might you make reference to the name of the conference the first time you mention it and abbreviate there-after? I apologize if this conference has been discussed extensively in previous threads, and is therefore old news to everyone else, but I don't always have time to search out what has gone before. Thanks.

    Nicole
    the sometimes clueless
    but trying to improve.
     
  3. Bill Huffman

    Bill Huffman Well-Known Member

    I thought that Dr. Bear's first sentence set the proper context. (i.e., "A report from the DETC convention.")

    Anyway thank you, John, for the interesting information.

    I find the statements by the president of ACCIS regarding WAUC very interesting because of the large puzzlement produced in my mind. She must be aware of the totally bogus nature of WAUC? But yet she actually called it "prior accreditation"! I'm one puzzled monkey wrench. [​IMG]
     
  4. Guest

    Guest Guest

    John:

    Thanks for the information and I anticipate part two.

    So CSU "ain't offered no doctorates since 1995?" Interesting!!! [​IMG]

    And if Chadwick's owner is a "wonderful, wonderful person," could one assume that a Chadwick degree is a "wonderful, wonderful" credential? [​IMG]

    Russell
     
  5. Bill Huffman

    Bill Huffman Well-Known Member

    I was once selling a house. We sat down to negotiate with a potential buyer's real estate agent. The agent tried to make a really big deal out of the fact that the couple wanting to buy the house were first time home buyers and they were a really nice and sweet couple. They were just wonderful and we would just love them.

    Before escrow could even begin it became clear that the new house we bought wouldn't be available for a month after the probable close of escrow on the old house. The buyers of our house (who I'm sure were wonderful nice people although we never did meet) said that staying in our (their) house for an extra month would be no problem, escrow would even handle the payment transfer from us to them for the one month mortgage payment. They didn't mind in the least since they were currently just renting. They pointed out that asking for first and last months rent from us up front probably didn't make sense since we were only going to rent for one month but they demanded a $1000 cleaning deposit from us!

    The moral of this story is that even wonderful friendly nice people can be stupid or dishonest.
     
  6. Mark A. Sykes

    Mark A. Sykes Member

    Nicole,

    I presume you might simply have read past the first sentence of John's post and missed the context, but he was at the DETC (Distance Education and Training Council, www.detc.org ) 75th Annual Conference in San Francisco.

    Respectfully,
    Mark A. Sykes
     
  7. Guest

    Guest Guest

    Bill, could this be analagous to many degree mills which require the first and last months tuition payment (i.e., pay in full) up front?

    Insert one's card, key in one's personal ID number, wait 30 days, and receive one's beautifully embossed diploma which is designed to be hung in a decorative place. Then stand back and beam with pride as one allows friends and loved ones to view the document. Just hope they don't ask too many questions, like, what did you have to do to earn the degree? [​IMG]

    Russell
     
  8. Nicole-HUX

    Nicole-HUX New Member

    Thank you Mark. This is exactly the information I needed and very kindly presented. I can now research this organization as time allows.

    I must note the letter string "DETC" (or "initialism" in common parlance) carries no intrinsic information. Together with the facts that Dr. Bear referred to the "DETC Convention," that he is an expert in distance learning, and that he interacted with others who would appear to have familiarity with distance learning, I can infer he attended a distance learning convention, but no more than that. I also note his observation this board would appear to have quite a number of lurkers, and wonder if perhaps some of them might feel intimidated by the intimate knowledge of the distance learning field that many of you demonstrate but do not always seem willing to share.
     
  9. Bill Huffman

    Bill Huffman Well-Known Member

    I misunderstood your question Nicole-HUX, sorry.

    DETC is an accrediting agency specializing in distance education. They fill a great void in an area of distance education here in the USA. The void they fill is not addressed by RA (Regional Accreditation), which is specialized "craftsman" training like maybe keysmith training. Over the last few years they have been moving into general education just as the RA educational system was moving into distance education. So while DETC was trying to separate the wheat from the chaff in the general education offerings for unaccredited institutions, the RA schools came to their senses and starting offering distance education choices.

    We're now in a situation where there's overlap in the distance general education offerings. There's first rate RA programs to choose from and there's second rate DETC accreditted programs to choose from.
     
  10. Nicole-HUX

    Nicole-HUX New Member

    Thank you Bill. A very clear, understandable synopsis, and very much appreciated.

    Looks like it's yet another case of "the more I find out, the more I find out I need to know." I think I may be losing ground on what I THOUGHT I knew when I first got here. {g}
     
  11. Bruce

    Bruce Moderator

    Yes, and Ron Pellar (founder of Columbia State University) seemed like a decent guy when he was interviewed in Mexico while a Federal fugitive.

    Bruce
     
  12. Bill Huffman

    Bill Huffman Well-Known Member

    I thought I noticed a slime trail form behind him?
     
  13. Bill Huffman

    Bill Huffman Well-Known Member

    [​IMG] I thought that demanding a cleaning deposit from us for our own house that we haven't moved out of yet, was more like if the Berkeley International University degree mill said that I couldn't use a diploma earned at UC Berkeley until after I bought a diploma from them. [​IMG]
     
  14. PaulC

    PaulC Member

    I am going to do something that really should never be done, and assume that you are opining on the relative value of the accreditation itself (RA vs DETC) and not opining on the relative value of RA accredited programs vs DETC accredited programs.

    ISIM University, a DETC accredited school, may in one's opinion have "second rate" accreditation (however you may choose to define that), but I would challenge anyone to indicate how ISIM University's MS program itself is in any way second rate.

    By saying, in a relative manner, that RA programs are first rate and DETC programs are second rate, you appear to be painting a very broad picture over specific programs about which you may not be thoroughly familiar.
     
  15. mlomker

    mlomker New Member

    Not that I want to continue flogging the DETC horse, but there are many graduate colleges and employers that will not recognize any DETC degree....regardless of whether or not the school is respected.

    The problem with DETC is that there is a wide range of quality that they will approve. The standards in the RA world are more precise.

    I almost attended a DETC school but I realized that I didn't want to spend 10 minutes of every job interview explaining it.
     
  16. PaulC

    PaulC Member


    You use a little bit of that broad brush I mentioned previously. There is evidence to suggest that nearly half of all RA schools, subject to recent inquiry, indicated acceptance of DETC. That’s not exactly chicken feed. More importantly, this issue of "many" employers has surfaced over and over but not a single post has provided any substance to support this "many" contention. There have been repeated posts of specific employers that were stated matter-of-factly as definitely not accepting a DETC degree, only to be provided with various forms of examples to the contrary for the very companies mentioned. There was a poster who insisted that the federal government didn’t accept DETC. But a simple review of the OPM manual clearly shows in no uncertain terms that was untrue. The same goes for a poster that was absolutely, cross my heart and hope to die, positive about the state of New Jersey. A simple inquiry showed that this was completely untrue also. A poster insisted that Boeing had a most definite policy about RA only. What do you know…my DETC accredited MS alma mater (ISIM University) was contracted by Boeing to provide an in-house MBA program? The list goes on.

    The point is that it is very easy for unverified opinion and poorly performed research to be posted as matter of fact and accepted as such by many that are inclined to believe that which follows their own bias.

    Do some companies not accept DETC? I have to believe that is certain. Are there many? I personally don't think so, and have seen no evidence to suggest it is true.

    I have a DETC accredited Master’s degree and have never once been questioned in an interview about it. Why do you think that would be the case for you?
     
  17. BillDayson

    BillDayson New Member

    Oh my God! The DETC war has erupted again! OK, here's some additional fire.

    I don't think that stats like that are very useful unless a lot more explanation is given along with them. Two schools may have an RA-only policy along with a small special admissions category for particularly promising applicants that don't meet normal criteria. So school A replies "No, we don't accept DETC (except in special cases)." While school B replies "Yes, we do accept DETC (but only in special cases)". The policy is the same in both cases, but the reply 'yes' or 'no' depends on the respondent's mood.

    A more nuanced approach would be to look at it as a continuum, from absolute rejection in some cases to total acceptance in others, but with many schools falling in the middle with limited acceptance dependent upon special appeal or with additional conditions to be met. That will be a lot harder to quantify, though.

    I think that the remarks that started this concerned academic quality more than degree acceptance. And my 'unverified opinion' is that while there is quite a bit of overlap, the mean academic quality for RA is far higher than the mean for DETC.

    Certainly at the extremes, the best DETC schools fall far short of the best RA schools like Berkeley or MIT, while the worst DETC schools are probably significantly worse than any RA school. But the best DETC schools like ISIM or AMU probably do compare well against lower-end RA programs like my own CSUDH or Touro.

    Something that may change that is if you facter in those foreign universities like UNISA and Leicester that have shown an interest in DETC. That will pull the DETC average up a little, even though those school's primary 'accreditation' isn't DETC.
     
  18. Bill Huffman

    Bill Huffman Well-Known Member

    Paul, thank you for the clarification. I was simply trying to give a general description of DETC. I believe a very important aspect of DETC is how it compares with the more widely accepted RA system. I did not intend to say that all RA approved programs were superior to all DETC approved programs. I think it's reasonable to say that DETC accreditation is second rate compared to Regional Accreditation. Just as it's fair to say that DETC is far better than unaccredited. Although I'm sure there are a few unaccredited programs that are better than some RA programs.

    BTW Paul, were you pcovers over on a.e.d.? I'm just curious?
     
  19. BillDayson

    BillDayson New Member

    Yeah. If those people monitor this group, and aren't always satisfied with what they read, then why don't they get up off their butts and set us straight? This is a pretty friendly and polite group.

    Are they trying to keep themselves and their institutions floating above everything like lotus blossoms?
     
  20. Bill Huffman

    Bill Huffman Well-Known Member

    Excellent post Bill, I'm honored to share your first name and your post really was so well done that I'm sure that the DETC war can finally be laid to rest! [​IMG]
     

Share This Page