Why a PhD? (Or Any Other Degree)

You took the words right out of my mouth Dave! Forget about MIGS Rich.

Abner

 

Hi Steve, I appreciate you sharing your cynicism. However, from your own personal experience, you could attest to some of my comments about these doctoral "get rich quick" schemes. My opinions are actually quite easy to refute by the schools themselves; all they have to do is publish their graduation rates of enrolled students in these "doctoral programs" and there, presto, I'll be refuted! I'm waiting to be refuted and proven wrong. I suspect I'll wait a long time...

 

I think this might be a misuse of statistics. I don't know if the actual graduation rate for PhD students in these specific schools (by the way, to which specific schools are you referring?) is what you've cited (do you have a link?) but even if those stats are correct then I'm not certain that you can turn them into a probability statement. If I enroll in a PhD program and complete the process and stick it out then my chances are 100%. If I don't stick it out then it's not clear that I can place the blame on the school. Many people enroll in these programs without a good understanding of the degree of difficulty of earning a PhD. This is clear from making a simple visit to Phinished.com where students from all sorts of schools bemoan their "incompleteness." Speaking for myself, I don't want a PhD to be easy.

 

This statement is incorrect (and curious bit of logic itself), because the online RA schools are accepting ten to twenty times the number of doctoral students that they could ever hope to graduate. They presumably have no intent to graduate 90% to 95% of online doctoral students who are accepted and enroll. In reality, someone starting an RA online doctorate today probably has about a 5% to 10% chance of completing, in my estimation.

(It is not a question of being easy or hard; they graduate whomever they like and everybody else pays tuition until they quit, no matter how hard they have worked.)

In general, whenever you accept money for a product or service that you have no intent or capacity to deliver, that is fraud. Accepting 10 to 20 times the number of students you could ever dream of graduating is negligence at least and perhaps conspiracy to commit fraud. The RA online doctorate business is a simple and highly lucrative business model, based upon false advertising and denial of service.

 

You've said this repeatedly but have provided no evidence that it's true. People enroll in a program and pay for specific courses. If they finish enough of these then they earn a degree. This is no different at any other university whether it is B&M, virtual, for profit or non-profit. I know that there's a big push to make the for-profit schools the bad guys in this situation but what about a little personal responsibility on the part of the student?

 

Your "estimation" is insufficient. Do you have an actual source or just an opinion?

 

Dave, you have made these allegations before and keep getting bolder each time you do it. Do you have any evidence whatsoever (other than your opinion) to back up the above statement? One national study of a couple dozen traditional universities identifies their avergage doctoral completion rate as just above 50% (which varied widely by discipline area).i While it is entirely likely that DL doctorates have a lower completion rate, there is no evidence whatsover to support your claims of 10% (or, judging by your latest posts,far less than that). It is important to remember that the absence of evidence is not evidence itself.

There are exactly four for-profit universities with large online doctoral programs. Capella is far and away the largest, followed by Phoenix, Northcentral and Walden. The rest either do not offer doctorates or their programs are not very large. Is it possible that the above institutions engage in the practices that you allege? Certainly, it's possible; however, since you are making some specific allegations, it is not unreasonable to put the burden of proof on you.

 

By the way, Steve, did I read something about you and the University of Memphis?

 

Now, back to the topic of this forum...

To answer Rich's original post, my career has been, by and large, in higher education (with some time in K-12 and several consulting jobs outside of academia). I had nearly completed a Ph.D. program at Arizona State University, when a job opportunity opened up in California. I was later recruited by Ph.D. and Ed.D. programs at four different universities and selected the least known institution (La Sierra University) because its program was the best fit for my career interests (combining leadership and educational technology).

The doctorate has made a notable difference, in both how I am treated and the opportunities given to me. So far, having an Ed.D. from a lesser known school has not hurt my career, as it is only one part of my vita. The difference in my income before and since earning my doctorate has more than surpassed the student loans taken out to achieve it. A doctorate is not always a good investment for every career environment, but it has been for mine.

The other aspect for me was that, when my wife and I first married, she said that two things that I would need to do were to write a book and earn a doctoral degree. As an obedient husband, I decided to "kill two birds with one stone" (my first book was based on my dissertation research)

 

Hey Dr. P,
I wonder if times have now changed and individuals with a doctorate degree face less opportunities and lower pay than they did at the time when you were becoming well-established. This might be especially true for those who have not studied in a traditional fashion. What do you think?

 

RA online Doctoral programs tend to graduate whomever they wish and large number of students (90% to 95%?) don't graduate or even come close to graduating. Hence, it is not a doctoral program per se. The program is something but it is not a doctoral program.

With respect to personal responsibility of the doctoral student, here are some questions to ask before enrolling:

When was the degree program established?
How many students have enrolled since the beginning of the program?
How many students have graduated and had their degrees conferred?

If the recruiters are unable or unwilling to answer the above questions, then simply don't enroll and go onto the next RA school, until you get some plain answers to these necessary questions. At least, they should be able to tell you a rough percentage of the number of students the school is trying to graduate per year. Don't accept a bunch of BS about how exclusive and rigorous they are...

As a prospective auditor or member of an accrediting team, you could ask the same questions plus the following?

How does the organization recognize revenue? (How do they recognize revenue on unconferred degrees?)
Is there a fund for unearned degree revenue? (How are you going to pay professors to finish these students in their degree programs?)
How are costs allocated between the doctoral program and the other degree programs? (Why is there a trainload of revenue and a boxcar of expenses? Irregularities?)
How are professors trained to work with doctoral students? Under what circumstances would a professor be reassigned for additional training?
Under what circumstances would a professor be dismissed for incompetence or unethical behavior in working with doctoral students?
Where are the individualized plans for graduating each doctoral student?

What questions are missing from this list?

 

Edmund Hillary, the first person to ascend Mt Everest, said:

“Nobody climbs mountains for scientific reasons. Science is used to raise money for the expeditions, but you really climb for the hell of it.”

I think for many people getting a doctorate is their mountain. It is a challenge, staring them right in the face. It is something they've thought and dreamed about for a long time. Of course, getting a doctorate purely for the challenge of it is arguably a terrible waste of time, money, and energy in the same way that climbing Mt Everest is a reckless risk of life and limb. But remember, "you really climb for the hell of it."

I say pursue your dreams even if you don't have "scientific reasons" to justify them...

 

Nice post!

 

Originally Posted by thomas_jefferson
Edmund Hillary, the first person to ascend Mt Everest , said:

“Nobody climbs mountains for scientific reasons. Science is used to raise money for the expeditions, but you really climb for the hell of it.”

I think for many people getting a doctorate is their mountain. It is a challenge, staring them right in the face. It is something they've thought and dreamed about for a long time. Of course, getting a doctorate purely for the challenge of it is arguably a terrible waste of time, money, and energy in the same way that climbing Mt Everest is a reckless risk of life and limb. But remember, "you really climb for the hell of it."

I say pursue your dreams even if you don't have "scientific reasons" to justify them...


:biggthumpup:

 

Hi Kizmet,

You are forgetting about one small detail - the dissertation. It is not a given that when a student finishes all of their doctoral courses that they immediately earn their degree; at least not for doctoral programs which require comps and/or a dissertation. I believe the dissertation process is what Dave is referring to here.

 

In this particular economy, there are certainly reduced opportunities at many public colleges and universities, who are forced to deal with budget freezes and cuts, which translate into hiring freezes. In California, where I worked at a public community college and a state university, the economy, as you know, has been horrific and the public schools have been adversely affected. However, during the past two months, the California State Universities have listed over 150 tenure-track faculty positions. The California Community College registry lists nearly 500 faculty openings (though a number of those are for adjunct positions). Higher Ed Jobs currently lists over 9,500 faculty and over 800 executive positions available and thousands of staff positions (though many of those do not require doctorates). Competition is always stiff for academic positions, but it would be incorrect to state that there are only a few available positions out there.

There has certainly been an increase in the number of DL doctorates since the "50 percent rule" banning financial aid for fully online students was repealed. However, online doctorates still account for an extremely small amount of the total (around 2% of the 49,000 doctoral degrees awarded last year). Of the top 100 doctoral granting institutions, only two (Capella & Phoenix) are primarily DL.

The DL doctorates have catered, by and large, to mid-career adults, most of whom are already employed in their field. I have dozens of community college and university faculty and staff colleagues who have successfully pursued their degrees online and have continued to work. I do not personally know anyone who is pursuing a DL doctorate with the goal of a full-time tenure-track position at a traditional birck & mortar university.

I receive quite a few resumes from people who wish to teach a class or two online for my institution (almost all already employed and are seeking adjunct positions). A number of them have DL doctoral degrees, which is fine with me. It makes sense to hire someone with a degree earned through online study to teach those who are learning online.

 

Congratulations! U. of Memphis has some great people in their Instructional Design & Technology program: Trey Martindale, Clif Mims and Deborah Lowther. If your studies are going to involve any of them, I would highly recommend the program.