Northwestern California University B.S.L.

My wife has her Associates of Science degree from a state school which is accredited (64 hrs). She is interested in finishing her degree online in business or legal studies, and Northwestern California University offers a Bachelor of Science in Law.

Couple questions I have about this program:

- Would it be acceptable to refer to this B.S.L. as a legitimate Bachelor's degree?

- Would she be able to competitively apply (referring in her application to her B.S.L.) to a law office outside the state of California?

Thanks so much for your help.

 

Hmmm. A legitimate Bachelors degree? I'm not prepared to say "no" but in my sprint through the website the Bachelors degree does not appear to be accredited. The law degree allows you to sit for the California bar exam but that means nothing in regards to the Bachelors degree.

Competitive application for employment outside of CA? I'm guessing the answer is "no."

from the website:

Our school was approved in 1982 to issue degrees by the State of California Department of Education. It is presently registered with and regulated by the California State Bar. Our students are eligible to practice law in California if they successfully take and pass the California First-Year Law Students' Examination (the "Baby Bar") after the first year of our program and later, upon completion of the program, pass the California General Bar Exam. Following active practice for between 3 to 5 years in California, they are eligible for bar membership in some other states and the District of Columbia (Washington D.C.). Eligibility to take the Bar Exam in the State of Wisconsin, however, can occur for our school's graduates without any "active practice" waiting period once they have become members of the California State Bar. Our school, as with all distance learning and correspondence schools, is not accredited by the American Bar Association (ABA). Nor is it accredited by the California Committee of Bar Examiners (CBE) though, as mentioned above, it is registered with, and regulated by, the California Bar and our students are eligible to practice law in California after passing the Baby Bar and General Bar Exam, and are eligible to practice in certain other states and the District of Columbia (Washington D.C.) pursuant to special eligibility rule

 

Hmmmm. Depends on what type of employment your wife would be looking for. Would she qualify to work in a law office under the supervision of an attorney as a paralegal/legal assistant? Absolutely. Would she know her stuff? Sure. You study law for 1728 hr. (2 1/2 hrs. per day for 2 years) and you learn a lot (not including the online lectures). Are they ABA accredited? No, but no online law school is. Outside of law she can pursue employment in insurance, real estate etc. Any field that requires knowledge of law but doesn't require a licensed attorney.

 

Heck students from the best of the best law schools can't find jobs. I would think it would be a lot harder with a degree from this school.

 

Thanks for the responses, I really appreciate it.

I wasn't referring to her practicing law (I know this requires a JD and passing the bar), but was more curious if she could be a viable candidate to assist an attorney with this degree (outside the state of California).

Per the bachelor's degree questions, I was just curious if it would be inappropriate for her to say, "I have a B.S.L from Northwestern California University."

Mostly just curious about the school and the program.

Thanks

 

I know nothing about this school or law degrees but I would avoid this school:

• Not accredited (at least I can't find anything on their web site)
• Are they cashing in on the prestigous "Northwest University" name?
• The tuition seems too low.

I'm sure there are better degrees available and there are paralegal degrees offered by CCs.

 

For example here is the Cerro Coso AS in Parakegal Studies.
Cerro Coso College  ||  CC Online  || Degrees & Programs  || Paralegal Studies

Or COSC has this bachelors degree in paralegal studies:
http://www.charteroak.edu/Prospective/Programs/Concentrations/Paralegal-Studies.http://www.charteroak.edu/Prospective/Programs/Concentrations/Paralegal-Studies.cfm

 

It seems that this school has that kind of "marginal accreditation." It's OK in California but not anywhere else. The original poster specifically asked about "competitive employment outside of California." I can't figure out why, in a competitive marketplace with multiple applicants, you'd choose to hire someone with an unaccredited degree. Is it possible? Sure, right after those pigs fly.

 

It isn't. On the other hand, NW California Law was putting up some of the better bar-exam pass stats among the DL law schools in past years, as I recall. Its JD program was kind of inexpensive as well.

I think that the California bar stopped authorizing non-bar JDs or something, so this BSL might have evolved from that. The fact that the school does provide real instruction towards the bar exam suggests that there's likely real instruction here too. I can't say how good it is.

Me too. It probably wouldn't be very useful for competitive hiring inside California either. I'm not sure what utility an unaccredited non-bar law degree like this would have, beyond continuing ed for people interested in the law who don't really need a degree but might want to receive some token of their effort.

It probably wouldn't be the best choice for the individual in the first post.

 

Northwestern California University of Law is state approved. When you're referring to accreditation it has to be ABA accreditation. Law schools are a different animal and there is no online ABA accredited law schools. The ABA has not allowed this and in my lifetime will probably never allow it. Some online law schools are NA accredited but that's just icing on the cake. Because of this they charge more but they're not necessarily better. I know for myself that for me to study law that this was the best/only choice. Also for the other poster that said they may be trying to intentionally mislead with the name of Northwestern this is just not true. They are located in Northwestern California hence the name. Also if you speak as a human resources manager for a large law firm I'll gladly take your comment about pigs flying. If not then perhaps somethings are better left unsaid.

Disclaimer: I am not affiliated with NWCU in any way except as an alumnus.

 

No offense intended but to me this means that you are totally affiliated with NWCU.

 

I think that he means that while he is a graduate of NW Calif. Law, he isn't acting as an official representative of the school. I graduated from the CSUDH Hux program and have occasionally written about it when people asked about it, but have no formal connection to CSUDH.

NW California Law is actually one of the better California DL/correspondence law schools. (That's not saying a whole lot, but hey, we take whatever we can get.)

In the June 2009 First Year Law Students Examination (the 'Baby Bar')...

NW Calif. U. Sch. Law

64 first-time takers, 18 pass, 28.1%
34 repeat takers, 12 pass, 35.3%

Those numbers might not look very good, and they aren't. But the fact remains that they are second best of all the California DL correspondence and DL (online) law schools.

The only better performance was put up by California School of Law with a much smaller sample size -

5 first-time takers, 3 pass, 60.0%
2 repeat takers, 2 pass, 100%

By comparison, here's Concord Law School, which is well funded, associated with Kaplan U. and hence is technically RA through the NCA/HLC, despite being located in WASC territory in Los Angeles - (It's also being promoted by Degreeinfo, which creates automatic links to both schools.)

226 first-time takers, 63 pass, 27.9%
130 repeat takers, 37 pass, 28.5%

Moving on to the July 2009 General Bar Examination...

NW Calif. U. Sch. Law

15 first-time takers, 4 pass, 27%
14 repeat takers, 0 pass, 0%

By comparison -

Oak Brook College of Law and Government Policy (the best correspondence/DL law school performer for first-timers)

3 first-time takers, 2 pass, 67%
11 repeat takers, 0 pass, 0%

Wm. H. Taft U. (DETC-accredited)

3 first-time takers, 1 pass, 33%
11 repeat takers, 0 pass, 0%

Concord U. Sch. Law (RA through Kaplan)

45 first-time takers, 17 pass, 38%
59 repeat takers, 14 pass, 24%

As Sideman points out, none of these are ABA accredited, so they won't be bar-qualifying in most states outside California. They aren't accredited by the California State Bar either (it doesn't accredit DL/correspondence law schools) which is why their first-year students have to take the very difficult Baby Bar.

When you combine the pass percentages on the Baby Bar with the pass percentages on the General Bar Examination, it's clear that there's an appalling attrition rate in the California DL/correpondence law schools and only a fraction of the initial admits at even the better performing schools are emerging from the other end as attorneys.

 

No offense taken. The only financial transaction that has taken place between myself and NWCU was the payment of tuition. I just like to give my take on online law school and in particular NWCU. If the OP is still following this thread, and his wife is interested in becoming a paralegal/legal assistant, I would suggest becoming certified through the National Association of Legal Assistants (NALA). This might give her a leg up on the competition.

I'm also heartened to see that the re-tests for the baby bar (in which there's nothing "baby" about it. It's a one day "bar" exam) came through as a hire percentage of pass rates.

 

I have a Bachelor of Arts and a Master of Science, both from fully accredited institutions of higher learning. My bachelors was from a private 4 year college and the masters from a state university. I have 31 years of experience in the oil, gas and mineral exploration business. I completed one year of study at a California correspondence law school, and successfully passed The California Committee of Bar Examiner's First Year Law Student's Examination.

I can state with full confidence that a successful California "Baby Bar" candidate is treated with respect, and this respect comes from licensed lawyers who are graduates of some of the finest accredited law schools in The United States. One generalization I will make is that we live in a country where only about 2% of the adult population actually finish the academic programs they start.

I have not attended Northwestern California University School of Law, but I do have great respect for Dean Michael Clancey, who is at the helm of the oldest continuing operating correspondence law school in The State of California. As a consequence, I have confidence that the law program, inclusive of the Bachelor of Science in Law they offer is a quality one.

After 31 years experience in the world of real work as a professional in the legal services area of the oil and gas exploration business, I can tell you that most prospective employers and clients are not, and would not be concerned with the nuances of ABA or even state accreditation. People are hired everyday as graduates of proprietary schools.

It is quite appropriate to refer to the NWCU Bachelor of Science in Law as that, because that is exactly what it is; and is defined as such by the university granting the degree. Let's be clear that earning this degree is no push over and anyone with a real education from any institution of higher learning acknowledges this fact. To be crystal clear about this, Northwestern California University School of Law is no diploma mill where someone pays a fee and gets a certificate in the mail. If it were this kind of school, it would not be allowed to function as a law school registered with The California Committee of Bar Examiners.

So Mr. Hayes, my answer to both of your question is a definite unconditional "yes".

Firstly, your wife already has 64 hrs documented when she earned an Associates of Science degree. If she finishes the 2nd year of study at Northwestern California University, thereby earning the B.S.L., she holds a legitimate B.S.L. from a legitimate law school, namely being that of Northwestern California University.

Secondly, to hold the B.S.L. would definitely place her in a competitive position for consideration of any job requiring the knowledge required by any endeavor requiring such knowledge. I would not be concerned one iota about "accreditation" issues, for not once have I ever had a client of mine, and I have been self employed throughout my adult working career, ever ask if my degrees were from accredited schools.

Don't forget that grandeur is a prize gained by accomplishment!

 

My answer would differ. Depending on state law, there may in fact be significant conditions placed on the use of unaccredited degrees from California-licensed schools.

For example, consider the neighboring state of Oregon. A Northwestern California University B.S.L. degree clearly does not meet the accreditation or acceptability standards of Oregon Revised Statute 348.609(1), and therefore is not valid for unrestricted use in Oregon. Since the degree is California-licensed, it does meet the standards of ORS 348.609(2); however, this means that the degree is only valid for use in Oregon if it is advertised with the following disclaimer:

Violation of this rule is a Class B misdemeanor under ORS 348.992.

These rules don't necessarily mean that an NCU BSL degree has no employment value in Oregon. However, it does mean that it cannot be used "unconditionally"; the truth is that it cannot be legally advertised in Oregon without an explicit state-mandated disclaimer. Furthermore, one might reasonably expect employers in the Oregon legal services industry to be aware of applicable Oregon statutes regarding degree use. Failure to comply with those laws might not impress such employers, except negatively.

 

I remember Kensignthon University in South CA.

They had good pass rate on the baby Bar.
Later they got closed by the court order and labeled as mill.

I don't remember why?

 

I imagine this school's degrees would be useful outside of California (even if nonstandard and unaccredited) in gaining employment at places where one would want to work to support attorneys in private practice.

Wagner's Law of not being hired: Generally, you don't want to work for companies that don't look at you carefully enough to appreciate the unique contribution you could make.

 

While you make a formidable argument for citing Oregon statute ORS 348.992, meting out punishment as a "Class B" misdemeanor for the use of a degree admittedly legal in California, but possibly not legal in Oregon, an important fact to consider is that the Northwestern California University School of Law is approved by appropriate California authorities to issue degrees in The State of California.

Your caution to include a disclaimer, while well founded seems to be applying to whatever school might be advertising its services and degrees in The State of Oregon. Without further clarification this does not seem to mean the degree itself is not legitimate, nor cannot be used by the recipient as a legitimate bachelors degree.

Moreover, for The State of Oregon to refuse to accept the legitimacy of a B.S.L degree in Oregon that is a legitimate bachelors degree in California, would be a clear violation of The Full faith and Credit Clause of The U.S. Constitution; and such an action by The State of Oregon would not only violate a basic sense of fairness, but be violative of the very important protections afforded by The Full Faith and Credit Clause of The U.S. Constitution itself.

I am glad to see we are in complete agreement that regardless of our differences on this issue, that none of what you point out means that a Northwestern California University Bachelor of Science in Law degree has no employment value in Oregon.

Respectfully, it seems the disclaimer is referring to schools advertising in Oregon, and not recipients of the degrees.