College Inc.

I watched Frontline and was very interested. Here is another article from the NY Times that paints an interesting picture of for profit trade schools along with some others mentioned on Frontline. The best part of the NY Times article is the readers comments.

Public non-profit schools are judged constantly by their graduation rates which gives them all the incentive in the world to push everyone through. Yet, many of these students fail to succeed in public or non-profit universities. So how exactly do these same students succeed at a for-profit school?

I knew plenty of people that attended ITT tech. These people were capable. They didn't complain about the quality of their education. However most of these people after graduation couldn't find a job that paid better than $13 an hour. That's hardy enough to make ends meat and pay back $40,000 in student loan dept on an associate degree. So, they were bitter about that and the fact they had useless credits which didn't transfer anywhere else for them to continue their education.

I remember back when I was looking for schools before much was made public about these for profits. I was intrigued by how easy they made it look compared to the hoops the state universities wanted me to jump through. I even tried talking to U of P recruiters that were relentless in trying to get me to attend there. I was immediately turned off by them and suspected something was up with them. I'm glad I did my research and graduated from a state university that has been around since 1849. I feel bad about anyone who has fell for the for-profits tactics. But I learned without any advice from anyone (besides what I found scouring the web) to not fall for the tactics. Its a really competitive job market out there and if I'm competing with someone for a job, and the difference between me and the other candidate is that the other candidate attended one of these for profits I'd hope that I would get picked?

 

There is nothing wrong with UOP except that, IMO, they are too heavily invested into marketing. The programs and the quality of the education they provide are equal to most B&M schools. I have a good friend who is a prof for UOP and he would agree that they are getting a bum rap.

 

They don't pay their instructors that well from what I understand.

 

I have no issue with this report. The report looks fair and balance to me. There are some issues that need to be address by these for profit schools. It is in my interests that these issues be made public. The high default rate is not good for anyone in the long term. It is not good for the lenders, students, and universities. I am a student with NCU and this was my choice. I could have careless what the advisor had to say to me. I do not need an admission advisor to promise me anything. I know what the current NCU accreditation is. I do know need to have a promise that it be AACSB accredit. I know if I am out of a job then I won’t be able to continue but that is the risk I took. I don’t need anyone to offer me a loan and promise me the sky. Individual stupidity can’t legislate away. However, good ethics is good for business.

 

The message board at that site makes for some interesting reading.

I think students themselves should shoulder some of the blame for the high default rate. Many simply don't do enough homework about their choice of school before enrolling. If the program is $40,000 and the job you hope to get afterward barely pays that much, you'll be repaying those student loans forever.

 

The counselor that I spoke to at NCU applied no pressure at all. She almost seemed as if she didn't care whether I enrolled or not. I like that laid back atmosphere.

I also talked to someone from UOP just before that and the counselor was very nice, but you could tell she was trying very hard to get me to enroll. She called me 5 or 6 times, again very nice but it got annoying.

 

You have to consider the source. PBS is at least partially state-supported and sees itself as being more high-toned than the other media, with perhaps more of an educational function. (Hence, almost inevitably, more politically left.) So it's naturally going to be aligned with the faculty labor organizations who don't like and often trash the for-profits for reasons such as their excessive use of adjuncts and lack of tenure.

But having said that, I also have to say that I join PBS and the faculty unions in not liking the for-profits. My reasons aren't theirs though, they are the motives of a student.

While I don't have any hostility towards the profit motive, I do think that there are rewards in life that extend beyond simply maximizing one's money. Education (along with religion, art and love) are among them. Profit is a broad category that includes more than dollars. The for-profits kind of dismiss and minimize precisely what I find most attractive about higher education, reducing everything to the single motive of growing their own bottom line.

It's difficult to point to any for-profits that offer university programs in any but the highest-demand vocational subjects. That means that they hold little interest for me personally, right there. It's almost impossible to point to a for-profit that hosts any research or scholarly activity, has any visible intellectual life, or is any sort of leader in any field of study. They just churn out huge numbers of appallingly overpriced but otherwise nondescript degrees and advertise like madmen, even right here on Degreeinfo. The advertising is so pervasive that many prospective students simply equate distance learning and adult continuing education with the for-profit schools, a serious and often costly mistake.

No matter what a student wants to study, by searching around it's ususally possible to find less aggressively marketed programs with better academic reputations and lower price-tags.

 

You are right, Bill. For-profit schools seem to take the heart out of higher education. I would argue that the students attending for-profit schools would be a different group than would take part in the intellectual life or scholarly research anyway. These are students who would not be going to any university in person because of time and employment restrictions if it were not for the FP schools.

 

I agree with you! I recently decided to go back to school to get yet another degree. Distance education is really my only option at this point in my life. I started by Googling. I went to the various sites that help you find degree programs. And, of course, I found only for-profit schools. I contacted a few. The costs were staggering. I almost gave up, as I do not want to go deep into debt for this degree.

I kept digging, and I found a few online programs available in my state. None were quite what I was looking for, but they were cheaper and that gave me hope! I kept digging. I found this site. THANK GOODNESS!

There's a wealth of not-for-profit educational programs out there that are a much better fit for what I need, and they cost a fraction of the for-profit degrees. Further, the course selection available through many of the not-for-profit schools is much greater. And they fit with my intellectual interests.

The concept of a coursework only masters degree, with no thesis, nothing called "statistics" and no real research ... just does not seem like a "real" masters degree to me. Why bother? I know that regional accreditors must now accept such inferior degrees, but my future employers might not. I don't want to spend 2 to 3 times as much on a degree that many would view as garbage (or at least inferior).

The for-profit schools are so all-pervasive that it is almost difficult for students to find out about the many affordable options for distance learning. I am thankful that there are resources out there that help students find the online degrees that aren't advertised.

 

My experience was similar to your. I made the contacts with NCU. The admission advisors were very courteous. There were no sales calls from NCU. As a matter of fact, I got a bit upset because of the hoops I had to go through. NCU insisted that I have my Canadian academic credentials evaluated by either WES or ACRO (sp). I tried to get a few exemptions which were also denied.
I have completed 2 courses and now on my third. I am not sure if NCU can do more for me at this level. I take full responsibility for my success or failure. All I can wish for is that the workload does not increase; every week I have a deadline. My grammar sucks and at NCU I have been constantly reminded that I need to improve it. But guess what, I got this far with no one harping on my case to improve my writing skills, NCU does.

 

I have had the opportunity to exchange emails with Jack a few times. Besides the dean of the business school, no other executive in Chancellor imo shares the same passion as Jack does. I have asked him numerous questions, and it was great for him to take the time and provide me with his responses, but anything that needed more specifics he would include other staff from the school in the emails, but it seems they don't appear as motivated to provide specifics. This is really sad because I think the school has a lot of potential.

I think I might have offended someone there regarding the accreditation issue. When I first enrolled into their MBA program, I noticed quite a few key staff members from Grand Canyon University, UoP, and NCU were hired in mid 2008 and 2009. Knowing GCU's background and getting out of their financial and accreditation mess, I thought Chancellor would have had great results in their Oct 2009 audit with HLC. I asked them what happened? From mid-2008 when certain members were there, until October 2009 audit, how come they couldn't turn this around? I also asked, how did they get themselves in this mess to begin with?

As a student of the school, I feel I have every right to get an action plan on what the school plans to do to get out of "show-order" cause. Not some response as "we will be removed from show-order cause" To me, that is not a detailed action plan. When I further questioned about this and said I am considering transferring to another school, because I don't feel convinced enough that the school will get out of this mess, I basically got the following response, "There are no guarantees, and I suggest that you act in your own self interest. We will not know the outcome until early March 2011."

As you see, I was not too happy to get this type of response. Now, I am seriously considering making the move over to NorthCentral University, for their MBA in Finance. I know the school is expensive compared to others, but the more research I have done, the more I like the flexibility of working at my own pace, and have the ability to complete the courses between 4 to 12 weeks. Also, they will accept the two mba courses I have completed and only need ten courses to complete the degree. Also, from reviewing the finance courses, it looks like these classes will tie in right with CPCU and ARM designations.

 

My favorite line was "this is fast-foodification of higher education."

I guess that makes adjunct faculty the burger-flippers of higher education!!

(Want fries with that? Would you like to double your major?)

 

Actually, my current school (Academy of Art University) is for profit and it is, indeed, among the tops in a lot of its fields. It's considered one of the top 10 school for 3d Animation/VFX in the world (not in the USA only) according to some top magazines ranks. No surprisingly, this is one of the most popular departments, as we have classes with instructors that work (or have worked) at ILM, Blizzard, Pixar, etc...

The Academy of Art also has the only student show in the New York Fashion Week - which, by default, makes its Fashion program one of the tops in the country too.

 

PM me if you want any insider info on NCU; I'll be happy to tell you all I know. I'm just getting started but I'm really liking it.

 

Yes, I'd like a McDoctorate please.

 

You're not kidding, they are all over you about every detail of your writing. I've always gotten A's on my papers through several degrees and several schools and I'm not used to getting raked over the coals like this. And I like the abuse! It's good for me...making me a better writer and preparing me for the big D.

 

I took one Ph.D. course at NCU and thought it was very good. However it was expensive (my former employer paid the tab).

But I would think there are better (AACSB) MBA choices available at a lower cost. Here is one from U Mass Lowell:
http://continuinged.uml.edu/online/MBA/

 

I'd like the full meal and super size that and how about an apple pie too!

 

Yes they are expensive on a per class basis, but until just recently, you only had to do 51 units for a PhD (not sure about a master's) so it did not turn out as expensive as you would think in the long haul. HOWEVER, they just upped the minimum units for a doctorate to 60 and that will make it more expensive.

I'm not sure what they've done with the units for a master's. But if they raised the requirement, it will cost more.