The watering down of higher education.

Scratch your head over this one Dave.

When I got time to read yesterday's Melbourne Age, I found an interesting article that should 'provoke' either thought or reaction. I don't have copyright permission as such, and will repeat some snippets.

The address is www.theage.com.au and the section is 'Education' and the article 'Are Degrees on Course for Quality?'

Consider the following:

In the last 2 decades the number of degree courses has more than quadrupled ... student body increased 20-fold since 1949 ... part time students doubled in 20 years to 2000.

Many of what are called degree courses today would not have passed muster 20 years ago because they concentrate on how-to at the expense of what it means, ethically and otherwise, to be involved in certain roles in society. The use of degrees has become a cultural capital ...

Degrees, right across the board, are no longer about critical exploration and research of what a particular activity means. Degrees have bcome what used to be called Diplomas ...

Vocational studies are important but vocational qualifications should have to stand on their own right.

The slide has even affected the quality and standing of higher degrees. A MA is pretty much the same now as a graduate diploma which is very sad because a MA degree or MSc was a very prestigious high level degree you did as a post graduate.

There is a simple way to fix the problem - when you learn a technique it should be Diploma - whether a car or a human body. There should then be no status differentiation between the qualifications of a mechanic and a surgeon.

The opposing view is that all degrees, whether in vocational areas or otherwise, relate to advanced knowledge...

Professor Mark Gabbott of Monash refers to the pressure that universities are under to put bums on seats ... students go the university to get training rather than education, and the educational product is to get them a job, and also the life skills to learn further as they go along. Most universities have already made the choice to either train or educate.

Interesting isn't it?

...and then Dr James of RMIT concludes that '...while quality remains inside the degrees, the subjects have become smaller, the degree courses have become shorter in length and the subjects are often taken from other areas rather than dedicated masters or post graduate diplomasubjects.

And this is real issue folks, and I have great difficulty in regarding a 'conversion masters' a-la Laurie's products is really the same as what i slogged my guts out for in my MEd and MAcc. On the other hand, being more than adequately qualified on the professional front, I chose something left field after that - it has a utilitarian focus in a sense but that was not the purpose - it was learning for the sake of learning where I got the flexibility i needed, togeter with the rigour and the support of my work environment and academic mentors out here.

Peter French
Accounting, Banking, Engineering and Teaching 'mechanic'

 

The point being what--that people who work at McDonalds need to stop being so uppity and know their place? The veil of concern for other people's well-being ("don't give bad advice") which you shroud around your elitism is rather thin.

 

While I understand your point Dennis, this example is rather unfortunate as, when your father was young, the temperature probably WAS colder (it's that darned global warming thing). Otherwise, I tend to agree with Bill Dayson on this topic.
Jack

 

Is it easier today to get a college degree than at any time in documented history? If you answer anything other than, yes I apologize for interrupting Regis and Kelly. I'll let you get back to the tube. It is my contention that as degrees become esaier to get th evalue of the degrees earned by those who have earned their degrees will be eroded. When everyone has a college degree who will want one? It is common knowledge that bachelors degrees are becoming so common that they are now, in some places, required for employment as a high school diploma once was. Like me or not I deal with reality, something that some people who post here rarely deal with.

It is not my belief that higher education needs to elitist. In fact anyone who knows me would say that I am personally dedicated to removing barriers to education. I believe strongy in the power of improving ones life through education. That said, I feel that if people are to improve their life through education that education must meet a minimum quality standard. I feel that there are too many places for people to take a free ride to a degree. Those who agree with me are labeled as "taditionalist", "elitist" and "Good ole boys" and those who disagree with me are people who have taken advantage of the weakened system and feel the need to serve as a voice of the downtrodden masses.

For those of you who have not taken advantage of the oppportunity to do, so try posting something that goes against the commonly held values of some of the senior members. If you ever wondered what it was like to have your words and ideas misconstrued or spun here is your chance! This thread in particular has been like being in a political simulator. I say A and then the other party comes along and attempts to discredit me and then re-interpret what I have said to support their side of the case. When you read your words as interpreted by someone other than yourself who shares none of your values it is very comical. I enjoy the laughes.

As for my Geek friend in California I appreciate your jab. But once again someone else has missed the point of what I was attempting to point out. And in fact I take offense to the idea that I am above food service work because I have 8 years of food service work under my belt, much of that a fast food place. I worked my way through college and knew that there was more to life than asking people if they wanted to "up-size their combo meal". But as much as you dislike it there will always be a need for a person who is willing to acept below minimum wage to flip burgers, they don't aspire to that job but it is reality. I respect those people and only wish that others could learn from them. I do not and will not ever be convinced that knock down barriers to education is the key. Sure some people and or groups have been denied access to education and that is a fact. But in an attempt to remedy this we might just destabilize the whole system. Instead of knoking the doors down I suggest that we replace them, the doors to the hallowed halls of education, with turnstiles that have the ability to select people based on their desire to improve themselves.

Jeff Whetzel
ASGS, Saint Francis Commnity College Of South Central Michigan
BOB, John Smith University Virtual Campus
MSDS, OSHA Community College
MBAASAP, McDrivethru College
TCB, University of Graceland Chicago Campus
Pre-Ph.D., Oduesp State University
Ed.D., Evian Golbal University LLC
J.D., www.whowantstobealawyer.com
L.Cd, Ynos Island State College
MGM, University of Saint Croix a division of American National State University and Credit Union
Duct-Tape, Certification, Red Green University - Summa Cum Laude
LAPD, Honorary Degree from the National College of the city of Opaloka, Florida International.
N.R.A., The Second Amendment Institute -Dugger, Indiana


Disclaimer: The proceeding is my real name but the degrees and institution are either made up or borrowed from real life examples of bad credentials. This in no way means that I endorse any of these programs or schools and I am affiliated with any of them. It was meant to be facetious. No animals were harmed in this incident and children, do not try this at home! Warning prolonged exposure to this posting has been determined to cause cancer in lab rats.

 

Interesting article. Thanks, Peter. Here's a direct link: Are degrees on course for quality?.

The article does present both sides of the issue, and is worth a quick look even by those who disagree with Peter's point.

This snippet sums it up for me:

• ...Professor Craig McInnis, of Melbourne University, says a lot of work has to be carried out to define what exactly constitutes a degree for undergraduate and postgraduate levels. "There's enormous diversity still around the country in terms of the amount of time required and the prerequisites required of degree programs,'' he says. ...

I believe that would-be employers are increasingly going to look at the details of each candidate's qualifications. The recruiting committees at the company I work for always scrutinize transcripts before inviting someone for an interview, and in the case of Master's or PhD degrees, always ask for PDFs of theses/dissertations and relevant publications.

 

Were it not for the fact that _you_ were the one who made the post about McDonalds employees who couldn't make change, your "offense" could be taken a little more seriously.

One of the reasons that people "misinterpret" what you say is that you say so many contradictory things. When I read the original post of yours in a thread, and then read your follow-ups to people who have "misinterpreted" you, I wonder whether you've really thought any of this stuff through. For example, in your last response you say "It is not my belief that higher education needs to elitist. In fact anyone who knows me would say that I am personally dedicated to removing barriers to education. " and then just a couple of paragraphs later you say, "I do not and will not ever be convinced that knock down barriers to education is the key." There, in the course of a few paragraphs, you've managed to completely contradict yourself. You complain about people twisting your arguments around, but they already come pre-twisted.

 

The Geek is correct, some of the things that I have posted may appear to contradict others that I have posted. And if you only read two or three of my posts then you might conclude that this is the case and dismiss my postings. However, in this case I re-read what the Geek pointed out and found that I had inadvertently omitted a few key phrases that made my last posting seem contradictory. Please allow me to clarify part of the last paragraph.

"I do not and will not ever be convinced that knock down barriers to education is the key"

Should have read:
I do not and will not ever be convinecd that making higher education, at the bachelors level or above, attainable for everyone is the answer to the many edicational ills in this country.
What I was trying to draw attention to is the mentality that exist where people think that everyone is entitled to a degree for one reason or another. I firmly believe that everyone is entilted to the same opportunities but just because someone passes up an opportunity at some point in their life does not automatically entitle them to a degree or special treatment at a later date. There are too many adults who are going about furthering their education in the right way to cheapen the system by encourageing people to seek the quickest and cheapest degree program possible, regardless of quality. That does not contradict my opinion on remoeing barriers. I am willing to do whatever it takes to help someone complete a quality program that would be benifitual to them as person. I would never, knowingly, point someone in a direction that I knew to be less than legitimate. And it gets old listening to people ask questions about programs that they are considering enrolling in, even though they have questions about the universities credibility prior to application process. And I want to make sure that I give example because some people have requested them, so here I go.

Example:
I am thinking about applying to the MBA program at Mad Dog University (I hope that doe not exist, I apologize if it does) do you think that their program will ever become RA? I heard from a friend of my cousins barber that they had applied and that accreditation was pending, can anyone comfirm or deny this? Also how do you think this degree would compare to the program at Duke, Yale, Harvard and UCLA? I have heard that they are looked down upon because of their status as a degree mill, should I still apply?

Sample reply:
I graduated from MDU a year ago and I am now making a great living. Do not let all of that criticism scare you away from a great program. In fact if no one asks, you don't have to tell them that your degree comes from an un-accredited school that only required you to request a degree from their web site. Hey, until you get caught it is a great way to go!

Name withheld out of fear.

Is this clear? Do I need to go find names of schools and user names to make my point? I hope that it is clear enough for all to understand. Geek, thank you for pointing out the error of my ways. I must admit that I am better at debate when it is face to face, so I make mistakes. Let he who is perfect cast the first stone!

 

Exactly what, are you wanting to know is clear with us Jeff?

This is effectively an open forum of mature people neither challenged academically nor on the IQ front. We don't come here to support or reject another's point of view, opinion or presentation in support of or opposing a particular view.

What you are attempting to say, is not altogether clear. It is bit like a student I was talking to earlier this week who presented me with a very heavy bundle of material - '...that is nice Jeff, but it is a pity that there is nowhere this this is going to fit into your dissertation...'

However, there is clearly concern about:

1. The restrictions denying educational opportunities to a more broader propulation being removed.

2. Maintaining integrity and rigour in education at all levels.

3. The profit or funding motive [depending on whether we are talking US or eslewhere] that impacts on course offerings and content.

4. The culture, integrity and motive generators of a large cross section of humanity who form the providers and users of education.

Where there is an assemblage of learned people discussing such issues, the degree of their maturity will be evidenced in (a) the breadth of discussion, (b) the variation of opinion, and (c) the apparent inconclusiveness of the debate.

You have made some valid points, in some instances in quite a confused fashion, but they are valid nonetheless.

I don't want to go back down the 'elistist' track - simply, it stinks! I don't want to see degrees degenerate in value with 'degree creep'. I don't see the necessity of the plumber becoming the holder of a 'BS in Plumbology and Shitremovification'. I am divided on the debate of trying to draw a line between training and education.

However, there is a wheel and it turns slowly, but it does turn. Going back to Abraham Flexners book I revist his concern about universities becoming but service stations and losing their purpose, and I see his point as clearly today as he did early last century. Water does find its own level, and so does education and it will continue to do so. If that was not the case, why would anyone aspire to an Ivy League education? You know a tree by its fruit, and today it is evident where you would try and draw your staff from. Do a lousy degree, you do a lousy job, and the institution you 'graduated' from in the end gets a lousy name.

PF

 

I think, Peter, you've just created a new "academic" discipline. Do you think that will fall under arts, or will it be under sciences? Maybe it will be a professional line of degrees:

BPS - Bachelor of Plumbology and Shitremovification
MPS - Master of Plumbology and Shitremovification
DPS - Doctor of Plumbology and Shitremovification

And, of course, for the serious academic, there will always be the Ph.D. in P&S.

O, this can be a truly messy academic experience.

 

I tend to agree with Peter; I think what will eventually happen is something like this:

1. For vocational fields, certifications will gradually replace degree programs with less field-specific rigor. We're already seeing this in some circles--if you have a candidate with a BSCS and no certifications versus a candidate with a BA in Liberal Arts and MCSE/A+/Novell/etc. certifications, the latter is probably much more likely to succeed in the IT industry (which is probably why the book I wrote with Mariah and John for McGraw-Hill, Get Your IT Degree and Get Ahead, didn't sell nearly as well as its counterpart, Get Certified and Get Ahead).

2. For academic fields, publication will gradually replace degree programs with less field-specific rigor. We already have people with Ph.D.'s in political science teaching upper-level courses in English at Ivy League universities because they happen to be published in the field, and this trend is likely to continue. The Ph.D. will probably always be a requirement for tenure-track positions at major universities, but as the Ph.D. glut gets worse, publications will gradually become the standard we use to separate the wheat from the chaff.


Cheers,