Do you think that DL doctorate programs are doomed?

That also depends Dave because many school districts also offer tuition reimbursement/ assistance. So the actual cost may be substantially lower to the individual. So if the said school district reimburses at a rate of 80% then actual cost is 8,000 to the employee( even at 70% still a good ROI). If the raise($2000) was what you said in your post it would then be easy to make up. That also does not mention the opportunity for advancement. It is possible that the individual could reasonably be up for Principal, Assistant Superintendent, etc. Which in turn could provide them with even more value for the money spent. That also does nothing to mention the requirement that teacher must pursue some form of continuing education anyway. This requirement would then also be satisfied. So I think you may over estimate the actual cost. Also in many States like Massachusetts you are required to have a Master's degree to continue teaching( in MA it's 5 years to get your master's or you are out). In that instance the benefit of getting the master's is quite obvious( you can continue to be employed but also it is very much subsidized by the school district).

 

Good points, thank you. I forgot to mention the opportunity for advancement. I'm not sure I want it, but it's nice to have the doors open in case I do.

 

Yes, you are correct that the numbers do speak. If you are correct, then we would expect to see a high percent of doctoral degrees coming from "quick and easy" online for-profit schools, as compared to non-profit schools. But the speaking numbers do not support this expectation. The number of doctorates awarded by Walden and Northcentral don't even qualify them to be included in the top 100 highest doctoral granting institutions. UMUC awards less than 20 doctorates annually--Jones International is comparable. Even Capella, perhaps the largest DL doctorate granter, only accounted for just above 1% of doctoral degrees offered last year. Other large DL programs, such as Kaplan, Strayer and Devry, do not offer doctorates. DL doctorates do not yet constitute a significant part of the doctoral population.

While a couple of the DL schools may, indeed, have a large number of doctoral students, many non-profit graduate schools do as well. 20 non-profit universities awarded 500 or more doctorates last year. U.C. Berkeley alone awarded more than 850 (far more than any for-profit school).

 

To me, DL doctorates, as they related to traditional academe, face two significant limitations.

First, the obvious one: members of traditional universities having negative views of DL. This may change over time--I think it is in the midst of such a change--but by no means is it finished. It may never be.

Second, and I believe much more important: B&M programs are feeders into academe and DL programs are not. Students in traditional doctoral programs usually study full-time, they often work as teaching/graduate assistants, work as apprentices on faculty members' research, etc. They work on their degrees "inside" they system. On the other hand, DL students are often mid-career (and, thus, unlikely to make academia a career), working full-time, and not spending much time "inside" academic environs.

The placement of Ph.D.'s into faculty positions is a primary measure of a traditional program's utility. For DL programs, it is a horrible--and irrelevant--measure.

Within 18 months of graduating with my Ph.D. from Union, I doubled my income. That is a good quantitative measure. Qualitatively, having the degree open up myriad professional opportunities cannot be overstated. I have a colleague with a Ph.D. from Capella, and another one with a Ph.D. from NCU. I'm pretty sure they would concur.

 

Since I am part of a team that is developing the first DL doctorate program at my institution (hence, my interest in this discussion), we are having to deal with the issues and situations discussed in this forum and I appreciate the points of view of my colleagues here. Our first doctoral program (Pharmacy) is a traditional B&M program, with a large cadre of professors who actively research, publish and present and no adjuncts.

The Dept. of Education has put a number of the accrediting bodies on notice regarding their DL programs, so we may see some changes in the future that will mitigate some of the negative consequences. For our first DL doctoral program, our accreditor (SACS) has made it clear that approval for the program will depend on the research capacity of the full-time faculty assigned to the program and the research infrastructure of the program (every course is the program has a research component. As a result, we performed an assessment of our existing faculty and found that the vast majority were not qualified to teach at the doctoral level. So we are hiring doctoral faculty with solid backgrounds in scholarship. Any adjunct faculty member that we consider must also have a record of strong teaching and research.

I know of at least one "for-profit" actively seeking not to be a "dot com" school

 

While that is true for people that are pursuing a doctorate (or any degree) for a raise or to earn more money, there are those that pursue a degree for other reasons. I'm working on my MA for myself and expect no monetary gain from it. If I can come up with a topic for a PhD that will keep me motivated and passionate, I'll probably work on one of those too, even without the monetary carrot. No one works on a history degree to make MORE money.

 

My experiences mirror Rich's. I make up the cost of my doctorate every two years or so. It has been reiterated in numerous Degreeinfo forums that the DL doctorate is NOT a viable path toward a B&M tenure-track faculty position. However, there is a large market for already employed faculty with masters degrees (at both community colleges and universities). And, of course, those of us who hire online adjunct faculty tend not to mind DL degrees on someone's vita (if the rest of the vita looks good).

Outside of academia, I am seeing a number of folks interested in DL degrees, since their companies offer tuition reimbursement and other who wish to beef up their credentials for their consulting businesses. As long as we have working professionals who do not want to quit their jobs and move, DL degrees are here to stay.

 

So true. With 1.5 million bachelors, 600,000 masters and 90,000 first professional degrees, doctorates (less than 49,000) are a comparable drop in the bucket.

 

True, but Case Western and Grenoble are both legitimate and quite reputable B&M institutions. Their names and reputation stand behind the degree, not to mention that they are both AACSB-accredited. It would be hard to challenge degrees from those schools, regardless of their mode of delivery.

I think we are comparing apples to oranges. I think many will agree that a dot.com/virtual/online school has little utility in hard-core academic circles. I don't think this will ever change and, in fact, will get worse as the market absorbs more doctoral holders.

When the market becomes more saturated with doctorate holders, something has to give, and it will probably be the dot.com/virtual/online schools. You can't just keep increasing supply and not expect demand to drop.

 

Your definition of saturated is limited to the use of DL degrees in traditional academia. Demand for the degrees can come from many sectors and personal motivations. For quite awhile traditional PhDs in the humanities and social sciences have offered little or no hope of academic employment, but they are still popular and have more applicants than seats. Demand is the issue, and consumers have many reasons for pursuing a doctorate beyond traditional academic employment. Working, midlife students often have a different agenda. In the long run maybe the meaning or value of a doctorate will change when so many people have one, but that does not mean the demand will disappear. Bachelors and master's degrees have lost status in society for the same reason, but they are still quite popular.

 

Yes.

__________________________________________________

J. Ayers

 

There are additional angles to this what you mention is one of them.
I would add the employer view of graduates from such programs and the contribution to the academic world and Industry by holders of such degrees.

If I'm in charge of a lab in which we employ scientists with Doctoral degrees we may have a feedback about graduates from universities and rank universities by the quality of their graduates.
We may hold graduate enrolling events or have relationship with universities that will allow us to recruit in to our firm such graduates. We did it to some graduates from foreign Institute of Technology and had # of H1 visas to import graduates from leading universities overseas and we regularly hold requiting events at universities that proved by the quality of their graduates and are very successful in our firm.
This includes Masters degree and Doctoral degree graduates.

 

I know what Scott is saying:

Do you think that DL doctorate programs are doomed? No, if from a reputable school.

 

This is exactly what I'm saying. In fact, I will take it one step further and say that DL doctorate programs from reputable schools will dominate the DL doctorate market eventually. There are a two primary reasons that DL doctorates are primarily offered by virtual schools: (1) B&M schools don't have comparable programs, (2) anyone can get in. If you take away Point #1, it will just become a matter of entry qualifications, then the market will sort itself out.

 

That's a good point. I think there will be changes caused by the additional doctorates produced by DL programs, but the market will, as you say, sort itself out eventually. In a previous post to this thread, Dr. Pina points out that there are not as many doctorates as one would think coming out of DL programs. B&M programs still dominate the doctoral market, so the overall effect of DL doctorates is not as large you might expect and the significance in the market is not as intense as I originally thought.

 

True. If you eliminate Capella and Phoenix, the amount of DL doctorates is quite minuscule. Most large state or private universities award more doctorates than, say, NCU or Walden. Who else from the RA for-profit sector would be a major contender? I'm not sure that the DETC schools are going to make much of a dent, either.

 

Is it correct to say that DETC is its own sort of accreditation and a school that is DETC is not necessarily RA? If so, that would lessen their impact even further, I would think. Due to the fact that many employers want to see a RA degree.

 

Most people know what accreditation means, but very few people know the difference between RA and NA. Professionals know about their accreditors, like the ABA and ABET, but most other people follow their own industries and couldn't care less. That's why degree mills flourish. Unless you're trying to work in academia most people won't notice or care how your school is accredited. Watch their eyes glass-over as you try to explain it in an interview!

 

I think Union, for example, awards about 100-150 per year. A small drop in a large bucket, IMHO.

 

I think the following article is very relevant to this discussion. Can faculty outsourcing for online programs be far behind?

http://chronicle.com/article/Outsourced-Grading-With/64954/?sid=wb&utm_source=wb&utm_medium=en