Do you think that DL doctorate programs are doomed?

Discussion in 'General Distance Learning Discussions' started by SurfDoctor, Mar 31, 2010.

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  1. RFValve

    RFValve Well-Known Member

    With all your respect, I highly doubt that there is any limit to the slots available for online for profit doctoral programs. There is no reason for this, if more students are required just hire more adjunct faculty to teach them. As online adjunct faculty is more of a variable expense, there is no reason to refuse extra income if more students want to enroll. The numbers talk by themselves, online for profits enroll in the order of hundreds for their doctoral program compared to the few enrolled by traditional schools.
     
  2. Scott Henley

    Scott Henley New Member

    Within the next decade, most faculty teaching at American for-profit online virtual schools will be from India. India has likely the largest supply of English-speaking, doctoral holders in the world. Indian institutions are generally well regarded and the doctoral degree holders should not have any problem making some extra bucks working for Walden, NCU or Capella.... at 1/5 the pay of American doctoral holders.

    Many IT companies have already moved their software engineering and support services to India and saved a lot of money. This will make B&M education even more prestigious... and online programs offered by B&M tenured faculty even more desirable. When the mainstream B&M institutions really get into the online game, it will be interesting.
     
  3. Scott Henley

    Scott Henley New Member

    Economies of scale and mass production. Must.... crank....out....those.... doctors....

    I am a strong advocate of quality DL, but the way things are going with the for-profit online virtual "schools"... it's going to come crashing down eventually. Mainstream is going to shun online degrees in a big way.
     
  4. SurfDoctor

    SurfDoctor Moderator

    It's interesting to note the wide spectrum of opinions on the future of DL. (That's why I started this thread) At one end of the continuum there are many credible individuals who believe that DL education is destined to equal or surpass traditional education because of its wide availability and personalized nature. On the other end, there are individuals like yourself who postulate that the whole thing is doomed. I think the truth is probably somewhere in the middle; it usually is with most things. I suspect that there will be schools that offer the cheap and easy degrees and will therefore hire the cheapest adjuncts from India or elsewhere. Schools like that could drag down the quality and reputation of DL. Think of how frustrating it is to talk to someone in India when you need tech support. Most likely there will also be schools that maintain the highest standards and successfully compete with traditional schools in quality and acceptance. There will also probably be many that land somewhere in the middle.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Apr 3, 2010
  5. RFValve

    RFValve Well-Known Member

    You are confusing things here, one thing is DL doctorates and other DL virtual schools offering doctorates (let's call them dot com schools). Dot com schools have about the same future as many of the dot com companies that started at the end of the 90's, I see the dot com schools as businesses trying to profit as much as they can before the bubble burst. Nobody is saying that DL doctorates are doomed but that dotcom schools that offer very little to the research community are doomed. They are here to make a quick buck but they are not really making an effort to create real research institutions that give credibility to these degrees, they rely heavily on "rented faculty" and to make things worst many of this rented faculty hold degrees from the same dot com schools making the whole business doomed.
     
  6. Dave Wagner

    Dave Wagner Active Member

    Yes, but the doctorate is not designed for nor will achieve that purpose outside of higher education, assuming that it is even earned and conferred.

    However, I agree that the doctorate has some value for the community college teachers that you mentioned; that is an application within higher education.

    The general attitude on this board seems to be that pouring money into a DL doctoral raffle is a good investment and career move, and it just isn't true for most people who start or finish doctorates. It is a waste of time and money.

    The truth is that earning a doctorate is an unnecessary process and credential for most professionals outside higher education; saying otherwise isn't going change the way these DL doctoral raffles work for those (297 out of 300) who are being fleeced and the massive underemployment of those (3) who manage to successfully win the doctoral raffle at the end of the game. (Of course, I made up the 99% dropout rate, but the kill ratio is extremely high for these unregistered sweepstakes.)

    I realize that everyone wants to market their DL doctoral raffle on this board and I apologize for speaking the truth in the name of consumer protection...
     
  7. SurfDoctor

    SurfDoctor Moderator

    Then you are right, I am confusing things. Would you mind naming some of the schools that would be considered dot com schools? I would think that the schools that I call "cheap and easy" would qualify as dot com schools, wouldn't they? I'd honestly like to understand this better.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Apr 3, 2010
  8. RFValve

    RFValve Well-Known Member

    I wouldn't call them cheap and easy. On the contrary, they tend to be more expensive than regular schools and they might be easier compared to other schools but nor really easy as they are accredited. I would classify as dot com schools any school that has no physical campus where students can meet with faculty, no full time faculty conducting research, no research facilities, use mainly adjuncts and that they were created only to make money. Basically, schools that rely mainly on a web site that might just be gone one day without warning.
     
  9. Scott Henley

    Scott Henley New Member

    I once heard a tenured business professor at a very reputable business school ask something along these lines: "if they don't conduct research, how do they know what to teach their students?". He was referring to the fact that he was just told that online schools hire contract faculty and don't conduct research. This struck him as completely foreign... doctoral degree-holding professors teaching with no research responsibility, teaching a "packaged course" based on a textbook.

    As much as these dot.com schools might provide some utility to people requiring vanity degrees or for promotion in some non-research, teaching position, their utility in the area they were intended for (i.e. tenure-track university research/teaching) is limited. A Ph.D. from a dot-com might fool an HR Assistant at a banking institution or government agency, but you can't walk into Harvard or San Jose State and expect a job; it's not going to happen.

    Truth is, if you look at the few people on these boards that obtained tenure-track or tenured positions (no administrative) at reasonably reputable B&M institutions, you will find that their doctorates are from B&M institutions themselves, that offer external research degrees.
     
  10. RFValve

    RFValve Well-Known Member

    Dotcoms normally don't require publications as part of their graduation requirements and the same dotcom graduates become dissertation supervisors later after graduation. The dotcom is a different world of mass production and profit maximization. Why ask for publications when this would discourage potential customers from getting the PhD product?
     
  11. RFValve

    RFValve Well-Known Member

    There is no reason to believe that doctoral programs cannot be conducted by using DL. In the UK you have schools at the caliber of University of Manchester and Henley that offer doctoral programs at distance. Graduates from these programs wouldn't raise any eyebrows and would be able to compete for tenure tracks at major schools. In the US, there are some good schools that are starting to offer DL doctorates such as Case Western and University of Maryland, I'm sure that graduates from these programs would be able to compete against graduates of any other on campus program.
     
  12. Han

    Han New Member


    University of Maryland?? I have not heard of this.... do tell.

    I think the entire discussion is comical. I know someone from the Case Western Program, I am from the Grenoble program. They are popping up more and more. I think it will strengthen the need for accreditation (professional accredtitation), but to think they will not be on the increase is just strange.
     
  13. SurfDoctor

    SurfDoctor Moderator

    This is well known on this board and not in question. I doubt that there are many, except a few naive individuals, who would get a DL degree and then expect to teach at a B&M school. That's old news. However, speaking from many years experience in the business world, I know that there are a great many organizations who are fine with a DL degree. So you don't have to "fool" them to gain acceptance. Granted, most of them do not require a doctorate, so there is a element of "vanity" for the degree holder in that case. I, however, get an automatic pay raise when I finish my doctorate, the only requirement is that it is RA, so I don't have to fool anyone.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Apr 3, 2010
  14. BillDayson

    BillDayson New Member

    This thread is about DL doctorates, isn't it? The vast majority of DL students aren't pursuing a doctorate. They are typically doing masters degrees or certificate courses of various kinds. The relentless emphasis on doctorates is a peculiarity of Degreeinfo and of the collection of people who post here. It isn't representative of DL in general.

    The future of DL and the future of DL doctorates isn't necessarily the same thing.

    I don't think that DL doctorates are doomed. But they are probably going to be kind of marginal for the forseeable future. They will be most popular among people who don't really need a doctorate but who would like to sport one for imagined prestige or marketing advantage. There may be a few independent scholars mixed in there too, studying for their own personal interest.

    I think that DL doctorates could be a lot more than that. They could even start to rival leading programs at B&M universities. But (perhaps with a small handful of exceptions) we haven't arrived at that point yet.

    DL doctorates do start out under a cloud in some ways. They are marketed to people who aren't even willing to move to conventional universities. They are almost always part-time, a secondary spare-time pursuit for people with family responsibilities and primary occupations. DL exists to make things easier, quicker and more convenient for its students. That's going to foster the idea, particularly among those who spent years earning their doctorates full-time on-campus at research universities, that DL doctorates aren't entirely serious.

    DL doctoral programs can rise above that miasma in precisely the same way that new and obscure B&M programs do. By attracting strong faculty and students, by hosting a vibrant intellectual life, by winning grants and awards, and by being productive of widely recognized research and scholarship. DL doctorates won't fully arrive until professionals can't stay current without encountering work done in DL programs.
     
  15. RFValve

    RFValve Well-Known Member

    I'm in a similar situation, I got a raise due to my doctorate and I guess a PhD NCU would have worked for me. There is no doubt that this program is beneficial for a lot of people.
     
  16. SurfDoctor

    SurfDoctor Moderator

    We can always count on Bill to give a well thought out and intelligent response. Thank you, Bill. I think you have hit the nail on the head.

     
  17. SurfDoctor

    SurfDoctor Moderator

    A form in intellectual inbreeding, wouldn't you say?
     
  18. SurfDoctor

    SurfDoctor Moderator

    So you guys are saying that NCU would be a good example of a "dot com" school? Yikes!
     
  19. Dave Wagner

    Dave Wagner Active Member

    Just curious... How many years will it take with your raise, given the time value of money, to earn back the tuition and materials cost of your degree? Any estimate will do. Thanks in advance.

    I ask because the time value of money is a commonly misunderstood tool of finance. For example, many school districts offer $2,000 per year in additional salary for a masters degree and an additional $2,000 for a doctorate. (That is, a regionally accredited doctorate....) Therefore: at a discount rate of 5%, if you work for 100 years, the present value of that annuity is approx. $39,696, and if you work for 200 years with your doctorate, the value of that annuity of $2,000 per year is $39,997. So don't spend more than $40,000 in tuition and opportunity costs on that doctorate, because you'll have to work at least 100 years to earn it back at a 5% cost of funds. Again, the hope of the "doctoral raise" is mostly a myth...
     
  20. SurfDoctor

    SurfDoctor Moderator

    Agreed, but economic reasons are not the only motivators. The enjoyment of learning and the sense of accomplishment are huge for me and for many others. The pay raise is only one in a group of motivators.
     

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