Theology / Apologetics / DMin

Discussion in 'General Distance Learning Discussions' started by jhayes, Mar 1, 2010.

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  1. jhayes

    jhayes New Member

    I have a BS Economics, but am pursuing graduate studies in Theology/Apologetics/Religion. I would like to be ordained as a Pastor or have a reputable doctorate giving me the option to teach.

    One option after obtaining a masters degree is a DTh from South African Theological Seminary. Is this credible for teaching? Which Masters would be best?

    Liberty Baptist Theologicsl Seminary offers many degrees online. Which would be best for preparing for the DTh?

    Due to work, I am unable to go Seminary. I am forced to study through distance education. Thanks for your help!
     
  2. Liberty, in my opinion, is a great school. I have thought about taking classes there, too. I originally studied Bible for my undergrad degree and often have wondered if I should continue with that track. Liberty offers in-person degrees as well as online degrees, so it would probably not be apparent that you got your degree online. I could be wrong, but it appears to be not quite as expensive as some other online schools.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Mar 1, 2010
  3. major56

    major56 Active Member

    Virginia University of Lynchburg offers the M.Div. via DL /online. They also offer the D.Min. but not at a distance. The university is accredited by Transnational Association of Christian Colleges and Schools (TRACS).

    http://www.vul.edu/
     
  4. telefax

    telefax Member

    Regarding teaching, don’t try to get into teaching in the US with a foreign degree that isn’t known to everyone (Oxbridge, Sorbonne, Tubingen, etc.). If you want to teach in the US with a US degree, seek an ATS-accredited research doctorate (Ph.D./Th.D.), since many schools will only accept faculty applications from folks with ATS-accredited doctorates, and such doctoral programs will frequently only accept applicants with ATS-accredited masters. ATS accredits the whole spectrum of theological schools, including evangelical schools in various traditions such as Reformed, Non-denominational, Anglican, etc.

    If you decide that you’re heading into the pastorate, I’d encourage you to consider waiting until you can go to seminary in person. Others here will disagree, but I think the “helping professions” are best served by programs with significant face-to-face time.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Mar 1, 2010
  5. Jason D. Baker

    Jason D. Baker New Member

    There really are a number of different questions here:

    - Is a terminal degree from a South African institution credible for teaching? Yes, and I know folks who have found full time faculty positions with such international credentials, but there are also market forces. There are more people walking around with terminal degrees than available faculty positions, so if your goal is to secure a full time faculty position, then the name and reputation of the school is a factor.

    Which masters would be best?
    - In Evangelical communities, at least, there appears to be a preference for an M.Div. from an Evangelical school plus a Ph.D. from a well-regarded school (Christian or secular). Even outside of Evangelical circles, seminaries tend to have pastoral training as their primary purpose, and so pastoral training and experience coupled with a terminal degree is valued more than pure academics.

    Are Liberty and SATS quality schools?
    - Yes. You'll find these and a host of others listed at my Baker's Guide to Christian Distance Education website.

    What about residential study versus distance education?
    - I'm a huge proponent of distance learning (it's my field of teaching, research, and writing, so I'm a huge fan) but there is definitely a prejudice against it in both academic (read: faculty hiring) and theological circles. While not all of the criticisms are valid, they exist and should be taken into account if you're looking to parlay distance learning into a particular job search. I do think, however, that if you pursue online learning you should seek to integrate it into your work and ministry service rather than just pursuing it as an also-ran. Contextual ministry blended with distance and online learning can be far more robust than campus-based learning, but it takes a deliberate effort by both the program and the student to ensure that such integration occurs.

    Jason

     
  6. major56

    major56 Active Member

    Jason,

    Within your industry – what’s the comparison with ATS vs. TRACS accreditation?
     
  7. emmzee

    emmzee New Member

    I know you were asking Jason, but I'll give you my two cents.

    I had no idea what ATS/TRACS accreditation was when I applied to seminary. I was lucky and my school is ATS (and ABHE) accredited.

    Generally, ATS is tops. If you get a degree from an ATS school, you can teach at an ATS, ABHE, or TRACS school ... but the reverse is not really true. Ie, you'd have a hard time getting a job at an ATS school with a doctorate from a TRACS school. So ATS is better in the sense that it gives you more options.

    A lot of the TRACS schools are accredited by TRACS because they wouldn't be able to get into ATS. That doesn't mean that they are bad schools! Not at all. But, their requirements may be different. And another big reason is that ATS does not allow 100% online/distance degrees. All degrees must have some sort of residency component. So you won't find an ATS accredited degree like LRU's for instance, or Liberty's (which is RA but is not ATS/ABHE/TRACS).

    So bottom line is, for pastoral training, unless your church/denomination specifies ATS-only degrees are required, then a TRACS degree will be entirely adequate (and probably a lot cheaper). Ex from what I've heard LRU or Liberty would be good choices. Personally I might even consider Liberty for a PHD someday, but probably not as my first choice. If however your goal is academia you want the best possible degree that is the most universally accepted, and that's ATS. (At least, for schools in North America.)
     
  8. Jason D. Baker

    Jason D. Baker New Member

    Emmzee's answer (above) is on target. ATS is the established standard for theological education accreditation within academe and also many denominations. If a university, seminary, or denomination is going to have a theological accreditation requirement (as opposed to just a regional accreditation requirement), it's most likely going to be ATS. Since TRACS is younger and smaller (not to mention historically more friendly to distance learning), there are a great many folks who simply haven't heard of it. There were some issues with TRACS a number of years ago, but they have been long resolved.

    It should be noted that although I teach at a university with an ATS accredited divinity school (Regent University), I don't teach in that school and so haven't been part of hiring committees for divinity faculty. I'm just reflecting my experiences in academe and conversations with seminary faculty through the years.

    Jason
     
  9. major56

    major56 Active Member

    Thanks for answering my question regarding ATS viability vs. TRACS Jason.
     
  10. Havensdad

    Havensdad New Member

    ATS is not what it once was. Nearly every Seminary that I know of, has revised their previously "ATS only" terminology, into "RA or ATS."

    A regionally accredited degree is "tops." There are simply too many universities which do not recognize NA degrees, even more prestigious National Accreditors like ATS. So, in order of acceptance and portability, it would probably look like this:

    #1 Regionally Accredited
    #2 ATS
    #3 Tracs/DETC

    The BEST possible school, of course, that maximizes the benefits, is one that is both ATS and RA; if you must choose, though, go with one that is RA. It will generally be accepted anywhere (I know of no Seminary which will not recognize a regionally accredited M. Div. Even those whose doctoral program entrance requirements state "an M.Div. from a institution accredited by ATS", if asked, will tell you that an equivalent RA degree {90 hours, approx} is sufficient).
     
  11. telefax

    telefax Member

    Unlike TRACS, ATS doesn't seek to be a school accreditor duplicating regional accreditation, but rather a professional accreditor like AACSB in the business world. While there might be an exception among one of their many schools, all the ATS schools I'm familiar with have both. Harvard Divinity School=RA+ATS, Trinity Evangelical Divinity School=RA+ATS, etc.

    I just realized how much that acronym-filled post looks like a maths equation, but I'll let it stand anyway. :)
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Mar 2, 2010
  12. Havensdad

    Havensdad New Member

    There are many schools which are only ATS. Most of these are stand alone seminaries, affiliated with a particular denomination.
     
  13. telefax

    telefax Member

    JHayes,

    Let me try to clarify. If all you want to do is be eligible to pick up classes as an adjunct at your denomination’s seminary, contact them and ask them to specify exactly what you’d need regarding type of doctoral degree and accreditation.

    If you think you may be called to teach full-time at a university or seminary (which is how I took your question), you’ll need to earn a very highly-regarded PhD to get past the fierce competition, which in the United States means a well-known school holding both regional and ATS accreditation. Don’t take the word of anyone posting on the internet - track down a copy of the Journal of the Evangelical Theological Society and notice in the “seeking employment” section how many newly minted doctors have yet to find employment after graduation. You may also get a laugh - I recall one ad discussed on this forum which stood out from all the men and women with PhD’s from Duke, Princeton, Harvard, etc. - it was from a man with a bible college certificate and an online mill doctorate. ;)

    Best wishes on your journey.
     
  14. Ted Heiks

    Ted Heiks Moderator and Distinguished Senior Member

  15. dquigley

    dquigley New Member

  16. jhayes

    jhayes New Member

    Sorry for not replying sooner, I have been extremely busy. I decided to pursue the MAR from Reformed Theological Seminary. I have completed one class and working on finishing the second. It has been extremely rewarding so far, and the academics are top notch. I did my undergrad at the United States Air Force Academy, so I feel like I have good understanding for high academic standards. If that is what you are looking for...RTS is for you.

    I am still not certain where the Lord is calling me after the Air Force, but I know it'll be in some form of ministry. I am thankful for the opportunity to pursue this degree while continuing to fly.

    God Bless and thanks for the advice/help.
     
  17. Havensdad

    Havensdad New Member

    Jhayes,

    You have picked a most excellent school. RTS is highly regarded, and a degree from there will serve you well.

    I would like to point out to those who are touting ATS accreditation, that ATS is quickly going the way of the dinosaur. RA is where it is at; ATS accreditation is meaning less and less. I know personally of a half dozen Seminaries who have removed ATS requirements for entrance into their upper level degree programs, just in the last two years. A couple have even removed "ATS" from mention at all in regards to equivalency, replacing it with "Regionally accredited, or equivalent."

    The fact is, that the ATS is ran by dinosaurs (figuratively speaking) who have not realized the value and utility of distance ed. They require a large percentage of a degree to be earned in person, which excludes a huge number of people, such as missionaries, who cannot relocate. Apparently, these men think that a term paper is more instructional if you sit around in the classroom talking about movies and fishing.

    Several schools, such as MWBTS, have found ways around the ATS requirements, offering Masters degrees completely online, from their regionally accredited college counterparts. ATS is eventually going to have to make a decision; catch up with the times, or shut the doors.
     
  18. Garp

    Garp Well-Known Member

    If your goal is ordination the number one rule is to check with your denomination because even above these accreditation issues can be doctrinal issues (depending on the denomination). Picking the most wonderful and prestigious accredited school can be a non starter if your denomination does not like their doctrinal stance. Not all denominations think like that but many do. Even some moderate denominations have preferences amongst accredited schools.

    In terms of seminaries that are ATS only, this can be problematic if you are intending to get into certain doctoral programs. I know I once saw a religious school that specified that the degree had to be from RA schools (this is several years ago so ATS, TRACS may work now). I think most ATS schools are regionally accredited. RA provides the most flexibility period.

    Check with your denomination first and get guidance, then all things being equal look at RA with ATS first, then foreign equivalent, TRACS, DETC.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Oct 25, 2010

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