Looking for input on Doctorate program

You're "on your own" once you get to the dissertation. A chair or committee members might provide advice to the candidate, but the candidate has to do everything, from start to finish. There is no hand-holding. None whatsoever. Nadda. Zip. Zilch. There are no and's, if's or but's about it. Not even a maybe.

 

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Regarding the dissertation process, I have never written one, my MBA did not require a thesis so for me it will not really JUST be a "personal process."

In fact, my understanding is that the dissertation is very much a "team" process with you and your direct mentor having the closest relationship during this phase and then the rest of your dissertation team/committee.

So I guess what I talking about is a school where you are not just a number, these folks get to know YOU, you form relationships and they too have a vested interest in your success!!

I know I personally feel that way about MY students!! I still get phone calls, emails, sometimes years later asking my advice about their resume, or going on for their Masters, etc.

I will be making some phone calls today to some of the schools, but still reading everything / thread I can find on here to help make my decision!

JNerd[/QUOTE]

Even if you have the greatest professor on earth (which I did) who takes a personal interest in your success (which I did), it is still a lonely and personal process that you are responsible for. There will be no hand holding. When you get your first draft of your first three chapters and it is shredded with editing you will feel like your work has been demolished...not so...it is a caring professor editing out the crap. I think the reason that 50% of the people who start the doctoral process never finish is because of the very lonely and personal process of the dissertation. My chair remains a personal friend and advocate for me, but it was me becoming the expert on my topic in the dissertation that he pushed for; not some jointly shared research project. It has to be done independently.

 

Ncu

A few things:

1. I got all the way through the standard coursework at NCU, and finished the first research course (which left me with three remaining courses before the actual dissertation).

I literally up and quit NCU after all that work because I worried so much about the school's reputation. The thing is this: At the terminal degree level, you are being compared to other doctorate holders. I don't think that most doctorates are willing to accept the validity of a doctorate earned from an online for profit school.

Now, people will come on this board and tell you a bunch of stuff about how a degree is what you make of it and those people are behind the times, and other stuff about how the degree should be for self growth. They will also say that it is your research that determines your status as an applicant for faculty positions.

The bottom line is this: I wasn't going to do all that work (and NCU is definitely a lot of work) just to have hiring officials act like I wasn't a PhD just because I went to an online for profit school. If you get a PhD from an online for profit school that is WELL KNOWN as an online for profit, you will be fighting an uphill battle if you choose to work in acadamia (unless you work for another online for profit).

This is why I up and quit.

2. NCU advertises pretty heavily as an online school and a lot of the decisions are clearly business decisions. That was a big concern. The tuition increases significantly every year. People say that every school increases tuition... but seriously... almost 50% in one year? Seriously?

3. The work was definitely hard, which makes it all the more of a shame that many other doctorate holders probably won't respect the degree. But, understand that you are on your own. You will probably get minimal feedback from a lot of your instructors. There will be some great instructors, but much of the time I felt like I was all alone and not really learning the material.

4. They are not AACSB (and likely won't ever be, unless I am mistaken). That, from what I understand, is a pretty big deal if you ever want to teach business courses.

5. Some of the course titles don't even relate to the actual material in the course. I took a course called terrorism and executive protection... no mention what so ever of protecting executives throughout the course.

6. As I said before, I finished all my business courses, all my specialization courses and one research course. However, I IN NO WAY felt like I had a strong enough grasp of the material to be called ABD, PhD, or even MBA... and I was about to start the dissertation (in fact, you are actually beginning your dissertation work with your first research course).

Ok, consider this a warning. I spent thousands of dollars and almost two years working toward a degree only to come to the conclusion that my peers (upon completion of the PhD) would not respect the doctorate from NCU.

I was recently accepted to Northeastern University's EdD program, and I am doing well in my first two courses. NEU actually requires a little bit less writing (so far) than NCU. But the NEU educational experience is MUUUUUUCH richer than Northcentral. I actually feel like I am learning, and Northeastern is very well thought of in the northern states.

The NCU PhD is just too much work to have to constantly defend it for the rest of your career. That is what I know I would have found myself doing.

 

Harvard graduates 97% of it's undergraduate students. Higher than almost any university in the country. Harvard's extension school graduates a very low percentage of students that enroll in classes (though there are no statistics available on what percentage of degree seeking students complete the program) yet it is viewed at the bottom of the food chain here.

I follow what you're trying to convey though, if a low number of enrolled students finish the program it adds to the perception that it was a rigorous and challenging program that only the very best could complete.

 

Alright smart guy - bad example but you understand the point.

 

Wasn't trying to call you out, Randell. That's the perception, that Harvard is difficult to graduate from (and I am sure it is challenging), but almost all students do finish. At any rate, not trying to take the thread off topic.
I don't know a lot about PhD/DBA programs so I'll fade to the background and just try to learn something. Enjoying all the comments here.

 

NC State has a few doctorate programs that are either on the weekend or 1 night a week:
http://www.ncsu.edu/academics/distance-education/index.php

Also I think a few other universities have some one night a week programs in NC. A colleague of mine is in the PhD program in Public Administration at NC State and she mentioned the classes being scheduled around adult learners. According to her, the program only admits 7 to 10 students per year, so competition is fierce!

 

NC State's Doctoral offering in their DL program is Doctorate in Education, Adult and Comm Collge. Then the same thing but with DE in School Admin. Neither of those is really want I was looking for (more business related)

http://distance.ncsu.edu/programs/doctoral-programs.php

UNC-Charlotte has a DBA, but near as I can tell it is a full time on campus program. If you find others I would say lets link them up.

The NC A&T SU program is designed for full or PART time studies, and I pulled the schedule of classes and they are all in the EVENING.

So if you were to take 2 classes per semester, that would be 2 nights a week and in theory you would wrap up in 3.x years or so including summer sessions I & II. You have up to 6 years to complete the program.

UNCG has a Doctorate in CIS and ECON, but again, near as I can tell both of them expect you do do full time.

Just for the others who may be lurking on here, perhaps a PER STATE thread, where in NC, we could list all the part time / DL component programs for review, etc?

 

Randell1234, I could not have said it better. If you want it, earn it. I agree with you that folks in the United States are getting to a point if it is not handed to them on a plater, then the univesity is a bad.
I really enjoyed your post and it was a breath of fresh air.

 

Randell and I both struggle with this as it relates to this forum. People often will ask questions that have been answered in another thread just inches down the page. They haven't even bothered to try to read up on the subject. At the same time, when it comes to degree programs, shit happens. Bunches of people I know have had all sorts of plans thrown out the window because of things like having to care for aging parents, other family illnesses, downsizing, etc. Just take a peak at our "Wash Out" thread. Attrition from grad programs is often about the pressures of real life, not simply a lack of motivation on the part of the student. One of the nice things about distance learning programs and asynchonous learning is that it's flexible enough so that some determined people, who would be defeated by a standard university schedule, can push through and succeed. Congratulations!

 

I am considering applying at Mountain State University as my "back up school?"

I am not sure how competitive the admissions process is for a NC PhD program, but with lower tuition costs, etc, I suspect it does exist.

Is that "normal"? I know in undergrad, students will apply to several colleges and then pick the one they want to go to, just not sure about Doctoral level?

Since many of the programs have limited entry dates, if you don't do this and miss getting into your primary choice, that means putting off studies for possibly 6 months to a year!

 

MSU seems to be a good school. I think I have narrowed my search to Regent's Doctor of Strategic Leadership, Mountain State's Doctor of Executive Leadership, or Capella's DPA or new DBA in strategy and innovation. I have a few more months before I have to officially decide.

Wish you luck, let us know what you decide.

 

MSU admissions deadline for the Summer I session is March 15? They currently do not have anything listed for a Fall start (or deadline)

 

not4profit, I can understand your concerns about NCU, I don't share them, but I understand them. What I have a hard time believing is that you went to so much expense and trouble only to quit when you were in the last phase. The dissertation is a huge deal but still, why didn't you tough it out and not waste your time and money? I assume you are starting over at your new school?

 

In my previous post, I had mentioned that you should contact the department heads. For example, back when I was looking for a liberal arts degree from NC State, I saw that the program was on campus. After talking to the program head, I was told that I could complete most of the courses online, transfer a few in and the university had a few courses that were 1 day a week. The program head said that they do not advertise this fact, because they do not want students to think that its a 100% distant learning program. Some of the universities may have flexible learning options that are not advertised, while some such as NC A and T advertise their program. Another example is the Ed.D program I considered from Fayetteville State. It is not marketed as an adult program, but the courses in that program are all 1 night a week for 3 or 4 hours. The course schedule is not marketed this way and I only found out by contacting the program's dean and discussing learning options.

 

I can tell you that faculty with doctorates in accounting are one of the hardest to find. Our local state university actually had a deceased faculty member with a PhD in accounting on its roster (now THAT would truly be a distance education class ).

If your doctorate could be in accounting or in something else with a stated concentration in accounting, that would be to your advantage. For adjunct teaching, do not worry about the PhD/DBA/DM designation (in the U.S, there is not much difference between them), find the program that best prepares you for what you want to teach. Perhaps I'll come knocking on your door some day

 

How old are you? That makes a difference. Also, nothing you are planning seems to require doctorate, so what is the point of putting your life on hold for up to eight years to get the degree conferred?

 

Ncu

I did have to start over. I actually went ahead and took the two extra courses, and got a second masters instead of the PhD. That was how I rationalized the work, time, and money down the tubes. NCU made me take two more business courses, which I guess were required for the MBA and not the PhD. They said that was due to a change in the program. I kind of thought they just wanted to squeeze a couple extra courses out of me since I had already finished more courses than was required for a MBA.

I had been battling with my concern about perceptions since I began with the school. It finally came to a boiling point after the tuition increases and shameless marketing.

This was also at a time when all I read about was the difficulties with the process for dissertations. I read stories about people who submitted fully complete dissertations only to have them rejected by a blind reviewer at NCU. I mean, these are dissertations approved by the student's entire committee, after numerous months of revisions but some other person says "no" after all that work. I also read numerous stories about students submitting a draft and the school taking weeks to get back with a review, but the course only lasts 4 months (maybe three now). So, students ended up only having a couple actual weeks of a four month course to do work. The rest of the time was eaten up by reviews. I understand that the reviews, especially if they are quality, will take some time. But, this is just too much to deal with. Dissertation extensions should be due to issues with research or student error. They shouldn't be a systemic issue within the school.

Anyway, the 3 remaining research courses, the comps, and the four Diss courses were going to take me at least another two years. Plus, I couldn't find any committee members who had any clue about my topic. I understand that committee members aren't supposed to all be experts on the topic, but at least one of them needs to have some clue.

This all came to a head about the time when I saw that Northeastern has a less expensive doctorate program, which is more highly regarded, and would only require three years to complete if I bust my tail. I was so disenfranchised by that time that the decision was easy for me.

 

Dave, I am not sure about the 8 years? Most of the programs I am looking at are 3-4 years in length including dissertation, and that is "part-time" studies.

I will turn 40 this year, I have been a partner here at the CPA firm but we split off a new division which I have greater ownership in and so I work for the CPA firm + do my consulting for Accounting Information Systems.

I literally keep going round and round here on these, but I did apply for the Phd here locally and I waiting to hear back on that program before I do anything else.

The Doctorate in Accounting makes the most sense, in that all these jobs I am seeing at HigherEdJobs really want the terminal degree, preferably in accounting.

In 2008 my online teaching paid me almost 80% of what I brought home as salary in my full time career! 2009, was a bit less, a few less courses towards the end of the year, etc.

2009 looks to be a pretty big drop, I am assuming that when enrollment decreases, they are giving the classes to the guys with the Doctorates (to keep them happy / around) and the guys on the edge like me (MBA + CPA + experience) are the ones getting less work.

So.. investing even 36000 for a PhD in Accounting (NCU), that would make it MORE likely to keep my teaching income coming in, the ROI is actually really incredible. (IE, Return would pay off in less than 1 full year of PT teaching like 2008)

I LOVE teaching, I spent the first 20 minutes this morning in an email to a student helping them discover weighted average and how to apply this to Earnings Per Share. This honestly is stuff they should already know before they get to my class, but so what, I can help and I do.

Last night I was finished grading a class, literally can hit one more button and go to bed, but a student of mine, who was average a high B, Low A, had sent in the wrong attached file (final exam) so she was getting a C- for the course.

I get on the phone and call her, (thank goodness she was MST) and she sends another file. This one is BLANK!! Heh, get on the phone again, she apologizes and sends the right file this time. I grade it and hit the sack 15 minutes later, with my course now complete.

I could have just let her work it out with Student Services, less hassle on my part, but I really enjoy working with folks and to be a bit proud, I am GOOD at my job. I have the knack in explaining real world accounting to them and they understand the theory they are reading in the textbook.

So, all of this....is to allow me to keep doing what I enjoy. Teaching is VERY rewarding, probably much more than the daily grind at work. IF I had a time machine, I would have gone straight through, gotten my PhD in my 20s and pursued a full time career in teaching.

Hope that helps to explain my background, why I am doing this, etc. ROI IS worth it for me, the work is rewarding, something I can do anywhere (teach online) and I just have to find the right fit for me!!

Sam

 

You may be misunderstanding the fine print... ask about the elapsed time students are spending in these DL doctoral programs, from the initial enrollment to the moment the degree is conferred. Also, you need to know the ratio of the number of students with doctorates conferred to the number of students admitted since the beginning of the program. If a school will not release that information in writing, then my opinion is that you should keep looking. Without that information, you can't truly gauge whether a doctoral program is designed to meet your needs.

(In the future, you can write me and say, "Hi Dave, you were a genius and I didn't listen to you, but I sure wish I had listened!" I promise not to laugh at you; if I do laugh, remind me of this promise...)