So what's wrong with an unaccredited degree?

accreditation...a joke!

Hello all,

I wish to get to the point by stating that there is nothing inherently "wrong" by obtaining a degree from an unaccredited institution. I graduated with a Masters in Library Science from the University of Kentucky and know that they hardly ever accept transfer credit from other regional Kentucky universities that are accredited by all the high-and-mighty accrediting agencies around.
This is especially true in teacher education programs.
I am a veteran and find it quite disturbing that some messages have been posted slighting the military for accepting credits or degrees from "unaccredited" institutions. If a person chooses on their own volition to obtain a doctorate from any university, then what is wrong with that?
It seems to me that what troubles many of the "Ph.D's" is that they are, I'm sorry to say, arrogant and quite protective of the title of "doctor" and wish to maintain the traditional system (of which in many ways resembles a medieval guild in which only a few "qualified" folks could gain admission). To personify this "wonderful" achievement of theirs (I have met some really stupid Ph.D's as have, I am sure, many others) maybe we should stop calling them "Doctor" and call them "The Magnificent," or "Your most excellent!" How about using "Your excellency?"
There are many Ph.D's I refuse to call "doctor," while others I call doctor because they have earned my respect. It doesn't matter whether it is an honorary Ph.D or the traditional Ph.D. The degree does not make the person. The person makes the degree.

Charlemagne

BA History Eastern Kentucky University
MA History Eastern Kentucky University
MS Library Science, University of Kentucky

 

Re: accreditation...a joke!

I agree that there is nothing inherently wrong in *obtaining* a non-accredited degree, though doing so could be a waste of time, money and effort. But it may be very wrong to try to *use* the degree, depending on what kind of degree it is and on what you intend to do with it.

Wasn't Charlemagne illiterate? He started a number of schools, notably his palace school presided over by Alcuin. But could never manage to learn to read and write himself, through no lack of trying. Einhard tells how he would go to bed at night and practice writing his Latin "A,B,C's" by candle-light.

What's wrong is if they use their spurious "doctorate" to convince others that they have expertise and speak with an authority that they actually lack.

I'll agree with you that some Ph.D.s are arrogant and protective of their imagined perogatives.

But I'll throw this back to you by asking why are you so interested in defending unearned and unaccredited doctorates, unless you are interested in exercising some of that arrogance yourself, the easy way?

And while you are at it, what does any of this have to do with your subject line: "accreditation... a joke!"

 

This whole discussion about the relative legitimacy of unaccredited degrees has omitted one important point: it is unique to the U.S. and some really tiny countries with no laws about higher education (or who don't care to regulate it). Accreditation exists, in part, because of the lack of central (read "Federal") control over higher education. It is because the states are so lax in their oversight that accreditation is necessary. If the states would band together and set uniform (and sufficient) standards, there would be no problem; and no discussion.

The notion that degrees from unaccredited schools should somehow be granted carte blanche acceptance is absurd. There is a case to be made for degrees from a few unaccredited schools (like Bob Jones U. or WISR), but that's about it.

Go ahead, take a doctorate from Century, CCU, SCUPS, FTIU, wherever. Call yourself "doctor." Who gives a flying @#%$& ??? But don't expect others to get on board. And don't be surprised to withstand scorn and even worse because of it. Enjoy.

Rich Douglas

 

I don't understand why states do not develop their own accreditation standards. State regulatory agencies develop standards and have regulatory authority over many areas (eg child care). It does not interfere which specific curriculum (eg christian) but does set standards. Why has this never been done in realtion to accreditation. As you say states could get together to help develop uniformity and recognition. The process for universities may become cheaper. I know that in other areas of regulation that states offer bargains in terms of cost to the entitites they regulate.

North

 

authority...

To: BillDayson

Thank you for your message. I will start by saying that what makes one an "authority" is not whether you have a doctoral degree. Aristotle certainly did not. James Madison did not, yet he was considered as an "authority" on the constitution, especially after Jefferson's death.
If, perchance, someone got one of your so-called "spurious doctorates" and claims to be an authority in, say, history, I say that what makes him/her an authority is not the degree but the knowledge base and reputation of the person. David McCullough does not have an earned Ph.D, yet I would consider him one among many "authorities" on the life of President Truman and John Adams.
I have known several professors who neither deserved the title of "Dr." nor deserved the respect in which a Ph.D usually brings. It is not where you got your degree. It is what you know and how you use that knowledge to better the community of scholars within a certain subject.
It is wrong to lie about one's credentials and where you got them. But, when I sit on a hiring committee at my university I would not necessarily condemn someone if they got their Ph.D in a non-traditional way. In fact, I would like it. It would put some water on the arrogant fire which fuels the contemporary academic hiearchical system and is often quite unfair and subjective in hiring practices.

Spurious doctorates are not spurious if the institution has, in any way, a legal right to grant them. If you do not like the place in which they received it, then that is your perogative.

Charlemagne

 

one more thing...

To: BillDayson

FYI: I have two Masters degrees and do not need to obtain a doctorate. Yet, if I did obtain a "spurious doctorate" I would take the pepsi challenge with any recent graduate with a Ph.D in early American history. I know my subject. I teach it and have for years. I have published on the subject. I have a manuscript nearly completed (yes, as an academic librarian we are required to publish...or perish as the saying goes). I have nothing to prove to anyone. Since I already have a tenured faculty position as a librarian, then I could get a "spurious doctorate" from anywhere and wouldn't mind at all to tell the world about it.

I'm confident in my abilities.

Charlemagne

 

And if they were to implement an adequate quality assurance process to enforce those standards.

 

This is not likely to occur during our lifetime. Quality assurance (for an educational venture) would presuppose that the states actually consider "ejimication" desirable. While all states pay "lip service" to the concept of higher education, few are willing to match their apparent convictions with real dollars. (Call me a pessimist - in my case, it's honestly earned, for I live in Ohio... )

 

Re: one more thing...

Really? What is your name? From which schools do you hold your master's degrees? Where can I read what you have published?

Unless you are open about who you are and what your education and experience are, you cannot use them as credible sources. They have no bearing on the weight of your opinion.

"Spurious doctorates are not spurious if the institution has, in any way, a legal right to grant them. "

This isn't true. Many, many degree mills have operated legally in their jurisdictions. The UK has always been a haven for them. Many U.S. states still allow schools to award degrees for nothing more than remitting a sufficient payment. The literature is filled with examples of degree mill proprietors being convicted of crimes related to the operations of schools with a legal permission to operate. To not "get" this is to not understand the complexities of this field. Or maybe you get it all to well, but have a reason for pressing another agenda....

To show up and, four or five posts later, to take such a narrow and extreme position on a very unique aspect of DL makes one wonder what previous experience you have in the operation of such schools. Your anonymity works both ways. You claim you're a published professor with two master's degrees. I think you're a degree mill operator. Who's right? Only you can demonstrate that.

Rich Douglas

 

Re: one more thing...

Then you would have no problem telling us what you've published, and under what name.

I'll go one better. Send me the titles that you've published via e-mail (which won't be revealed to anyone), I'll check out you & the books, and report my findings (if you're legitimate or not) here.


Bruce
[email protected]

 

Re: Re: one more thing...

He has just shot his mouth off and dropped his guts on another topic page here, so we know a little more ... presumably degree mill ... and from his location maybe the new owner of American Coastline University ... and therefore a friend/associate of Dr Dr Dr Dr Dr Dr Dr Hoyer purveyor of degrees extraordinaire and an appropriate credentialling service.

How small the world is

 

Re: Re: Re: one more thing...

Doesn't Mr. Hoyer have eight (8) doctorates? I think you missed one, Peter.

 

Re: Re: Re: Re: one more thing...

...but they are 'earned' ....!

This wanker who is now "TH" puts himself forward as a person to be noticed at his university, but then only has masters degrees. That may pass here in Australia [one of my old professors, a globally revered accounting academic supervised PhD students with a BCom(Hon) for many years] but is almost a no-no in US - no?

He sits on committees ... I think he really sits on the inventions of Thomas Crapper at his university, and at this stage I would not be getting too near him, as I do believe that he may be overdue for a visit

He doesn't talk like he 'belongs' in academia, and his ditribe elsewhere against John Bear - well really! ... that is completely beyond the pale. I may grumble about the way he always seems to agree with Greenwich and the other day Fairfax, but this is over the fence.

I think the "T" is for Tom/Thomas, and he really resides in another group that we have negative respect for

 

Regarding Linyard, I'm curious why he's trying to find an easy path to an MBA when his bio. says this:

Biography:
BS Business Wharton Business School, Univ. of Pennsylvania.......... MBA, Wharton Business School, University of Pennsylvania...... contemplating DBA, but where?

It is also interesting that Wharton doesn't have a BS in Business. Their only full-time undergrad. degree is a BS in Economics, although they have a phased-out evening BS in Bus. Admin. program. I don't think someone would call his BS BA a "BS Business." (It is possible Wharton has changed their undergrad. degree offerings over time.)

 

Another minor thing, it isn't the "Wharton Business School of the University of Pennsylvania" (as it says on Linyard's bio), it is the "Wharton School of the University of Pennsylvania." No biggie, but I don't think a BS/MBA graduate of the school would make this mistake.

 

You are right... Bill

The Bachelor's was in Economics (Business)('82) with a concentration in Public Policy and Management. I didn't think anyone would really care, but I guess you do. If you provide me with your e-mail address, I'll dig up my transcripts.

My purpose for posting this controversial question was that I noticed that a number of the "senior members" have co-authored books on the subject. I wished to determine whether this site was self-serving or "the real mckoy". My appologies!

 

Re: You are right... Bill

I don't care, except for this: people spend quite a bit of time formulating responses and doing research, sometimes trying to be helpful (but not always). It is quite annoying to find after such an effort, that it was for nought.

If you spend the rest of the night posting, by the way, you can be a senior member, too. That is all the designation means: you've posted a certain number of times, no matter how brilliant or lame the posts.

 

Bill, again my apologies...

Several years ago, I did in fact own a commercial construction company. One of the guys that worked for me was as sharp as a tack, but he lacked formal schooling beyond high school. I recall ironically, reading an article in Newsweek about American Open (NYIT) and called the school. Well, needless to say, they gave me two schools and those schools gave me a few, and so on and so on. This was around 1986 or 1987.

What began as a simple inquiry, lasted over two years. I researched financial aid (dependent vs. independent), credit acquisition (whether transferring in, CLEP, DANTES, experiential learning, test-outs, etc.), I alphabetically listed the schools, their majors, contact numbers, credit requirements and limitations, and limited the list to no more than 10 physical days of residency per year (for the working adult and his/her two weeks of vacation time). The thought was a step-by-step guide to the process necessary for the adult learner. Unfortunately, even though I spent numerous hours on this project (some 364 pages), life conflicted with any plans I may have had for publication (divorced, kids, yada, yada, yada).

I didn't mean to insult you or anyone else with my original posting. This was a deliberate act in hopes of determining whether this forum was intended to serve the "masses" or serve "the few".

I take this subject of education seriously and will try to help other any way I can... whether here or elsewhere.

And by the way, the book was to be called: "College Degrees Without Attending College". A copy of which is available by request.

 

Re: Bill, again my apologies...

Definition of "troll" - the practice of trying to lure other Internet users into sending responses to carefully-designed incorrect statements or similar bait.*


*Taken from whatis.com.

 

Thanks Gert!

I suppose I am guity as charged. The intent was not in the with intent to "bait", but rather "surf", under definition (2) Simply use the Web to look for something in a questing way.

You must admit though, anyone can place a web page or forum up over night to serve their own agenda. I neither have an axe to grind, nor am I selling anything! So..............