Proctorless learning

Discussion in 'General Distance Learning Discussions' started by HRDoubleU, Jan 20, 2009.

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  1. OpalMoon34

    OpalMoon34 member

    So what? Is the right to defend one's position only for long-time members with hundreds of posts? Is it a contest of how many posts and how long one has been posting? Mentioning those things is completely irrelevant to your unauthoritative reprimand, which I reject completely. It makes absolutely no sense, unless you can show me a forum rule to that effect. If you want to be the self-appointed guardian of civility here then you should also remind Vinipink and whoever else not to say and do things that they wouldn't in real life.

    There are so many bullyish people in this forum. As an example, one poster was requesting to see a sample diploma of a certain college and immediately someone just sprang up in interrogation mode and one asked why, told him that if ever he can show it to him he wouldn't, and basically ridiculed the idea of someone wanting to see a sample diploma. Why didn't he just kept quiet if he can't help the guy? Now, this Vinipink came to me grandstanding about the supposed source of my quote implying plagiarism. That is just so insensitive, childish and idiotic. Even if it is indeed plagiarism, what is it to him? Where is the itch to publicly embarrass another coming from? It is coming from something within that is really, really sick. Retards like Vinipink should not be defended, because it just gives him more confidence to keep on bullying newcomers. When someone comes here asking for help, people who can help should help and those who can't should just shut up (they should follow the example of Dr. Bear, he is either relevant or quiet). If a question is inappropriate then there are moderators who can simply delete it and leave a private message to the poster explaining the action. It is the snobs and bullies in this forum who should be reprimanded, not someone who is just defending himself.
     
  2. -kevin-

    -kevin- Resident Redneck

    I don't have a dog in this hunt but your use of the language above makes it difficult to support your position. And since this is an educational board citing a source might be considered to be good form. Especially if someone else were to want to use the quote. I often ask board contributers for permission to pass own their wisdom, and I always quote the source.

    Perhaps we can diffuse the issue and move forward with the topic.

    I prefer papers and assignments as a means of proctorless learning. the investment is greater, the cost to cheat often prohibitive, and over a course a professor can more readily identify the submitter's work.
     
  3. Vinipink

    Vinipink Accounting Monster

    It took you that long to formulate this brainless answer or did you get help from someone like you? Mister, you have been identified in my list as a troll!!! And accordingly you will be ignored by me and I hope the moderators take action accordingly.
     
  4. Kizmet

    Kizmet Moderator

    Everyone needs to stand down! The next person who fires a shot will pay the price. I don't like to lock threads. Don't make me lock this one.
     
  5. soupbone

    soupbone Active Member

  6. cookderosa

    cookderosa Resident Chef

    TESC allows you (if enrolled) to preview all of the course web sites when you are registering. You could go course by course and look for those which met your criteria. Most of my classes required both midterm and final proctors, but some did not (eg. midterm at home open book with the final being proctored) and a few of my classes didn't have exams at all- just papers to write, homework, quizzes online, forum posting, etc.

    I would say that if you didn't care which classes you took, you could probably complete your degree without a proctor through TESC, but probably only in Liberal Arts (due to the number of choices).
     
  7. cookderosa

    cookderosa Resident Chef

    >>


    My dad always told me that laws keep honest people honest. Some people are simply not deterred by laws (point: we have people in jail) So, I'd agree with you, and say that proctors keep honest people honest- of course there are zillions of ways to cheat. Go to youtube and search "how to cheat" it's very enlightening.
     
  8. Griffin

    Griffin Crazy About Psychology

    The door locks is a good analogy for the situation, but I feel that a proctor is not always necessary to prevent cheating.

    There's almost a cottage industry for answers. I remember in middle school up through high school and into college all you had to do with many instructor's was to get a copy of the book. It doesn't take long for a school to get wise that this is happening, and some math teachers make up their own questions and answers. Whether it is school policy or some other reason, some simply don't do this. One online instructor of mine hadn't changed the resources page in at least 2 years! So he probably was not changing up the test questions either.

    I had a pharmacy instructor who would make 3 different tests and shuffle them up before passing them out. Chances were good that you would not have the same test as the people sitting around you.

    Simply changing up the answers on online tests between quarters is a great way to prevent it. That way Fall students can't provide answers to Spring students etc. Even just rotating a couple of pre-made tests could yield benefits.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Feb 2, 2009
  9. bazonkers

    bazonkers New Member

    This cheating discussion reminds me of something that is tangentially related.

    I once took a Sociology class at a local community college. The class was hard but the professor said he would put copies of past semesters exams in the library so we could look at them and use them to study. Out of a class of maybe 40 people, only 4 of us went to look at the exams and used them to study.

    Exam day came and it was a tough exam. Almost the whole class barely passed (or failed), except for the 4 of us because the exams in the library WERE EXACTLY THE SAME EXAMS. The 4 of us easily got an A on all the class exams and everyone else barely passed the class. I know we didn't cheat because we took advantage of something the professor told us to use but it still shocks me as to the laziness of both my professor (for reusing exams) and my other classmates that never bothered to go to the library to use them to study.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Feb 2, 2009
  10. cookderosa

    cookderosa Resident Chef


    You can look at it another way- your professor wanted to reward motivation, and it worked!
     
  11. bazonkers

    bazonkers New Member

    That might be true! Unfortunately, back then I didn't care about actually learning anything and was only in class because I needed to check the box for my degree requirements. Since the professor didn't care about attendance, what it ultimately rewarded was us not going to class and only showing up for exams.

    I got an A but I can't remember a single thing about sociology from that class.
     
  12. Griffin

    Griffin Crazy About Psychology

    Well yeah if you know that ~90% of your students will be unmotivated, and only 10% want a good grade enough to do what you ask... my thing is, why reward lack of motivation?
     
  13. cookderosa

    cookderosa Resident Chef

    >>

    I don't understand the question, what do you mean by "lack of?"
     
  14. Griffin

    Griffin Crazy About Psychology

    Sorry, bad wording on my part. I mean that if I thought that I might struggle at all with an assignment or test, I would thoroughly investigate every source that the instructor recommended. Even if that meant trudging to the library shoeless, in the snow, uphill both ways... ;)
     
  15. Ted Heiks

    Ted Heiks Moderator and Distinguished Senior Member

    I think the idea was that if 90% of the students didn't even bother to go to the library to look at the old exams when the professor told them to do so, they were too lazy or too unmotivated to deserve the reward of a better grade (which they could have had had they gone to the library to look at the old exams).
     
  16. cookderosa

    cookderosa Resident Chef

    >>

    Ok, I see what you mean.
    I don't know if I agree- as a CC teacher, my students who are lost really just run and hide. There are a few who come to me, but I can always tell on day 1 who won't pass by who is sitting in the back row/doesn't make eye contact/leaves early/doesn't stay for section study.

    This semester, one of my classes has 34 students. It's a program requirement, and it's a math class. I just finished the second week last night. I have an optional hour at the end for free tutoring (section study)- it's an open casual time, so anyone can stay or go. I announced that I would be teaching fractions, something NOT taught in our curriculum but necessary knowledge- I know that they don't know fractions because this is my 17th year teaching this class. Few students understand fractions. I had 2 stay.

    If I hadn't been doing this for something like 50 semesters in a row- I'd say I had 32 bright students who understood the lesson and 2 that needed help. HA! What I really have are 2 students who care about learning the material- both were exceptionally motivated. I'd estimate maybe 20% of the class really doesn't need help and is mathematically prepared, 20% will freak out over the next couple weeks and start staying for section with weeks worth of unsolved worksheets looking for help, and 60% don't care about the material because "learning" isn't the same as "passing" which is their real goal- and are perfectly happy if they make a "C" in the class rather than learn something that they will need on their job.

    Maybe I'll be wrong this semester? As an experiment, I should do what the sociology professor did, and offer "practice" exams in the library and see what happens?? I'm strongly considering it. I'd like to know who would take advantage of that.
     
  17. bazonkers

    bazonkers New Member

    Ha! This makes me wonder if maybe I was actually an unknowing participant in some kind a sociology study run by the professor working on a PhD. :)
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Feb 3, 2009
  18. Griffin

    Griffin Crazy About Psychology

    Yowza!:eek: Well, I can't say too much. I just squeaked by in college algebra with a 72 and I am still not good with fractions. But at least I try.
     
  19. Kizmet

    Kizmet Moderator

    Maybe that study is still in progress. How do you think you're doing?
     
  20. mba_expo

    mba_expo New Member

    That's a quite lot, although relatively cheap if I compare it to the 30,000 yen (then approx. $300) I paid for proctoring (Brit.Engl.: invigilating ;-) at the local British Council in Tokyo for sitting a University of London exam in the early 1990s. This was approx. 1/3 of the cost of tuition for the course.
     

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