No Child Left Behind: Good or Bad?

My child is NOT handicapped he is handi-capable and is likely going to learn some trade or vocation since he will attend the same private high school I transfered my daughter to.

So I'm just saying do aptitude testing and keep the students abilities in mind that is not racist or bigoted no child is good at everything and all students are below average generally in something. Some of you might be amazing academics but are not good at lets say physical skills like can you skateboard jumping off walls, I can't. That is a skill but one that is not deemed important enough to include. Or you might not be comfortable in social situations and another person is a natural around people and socially gifted that is not included.

Its not bad to say NCLB is a crude mandate since it does leave at least a quarter of children behind the ones that fail the tests and do not warn a diploma, but a completion diploma which is not the same thing. That is generally the numbers in my county by the way. NCLB is leaving children behind.

 

You're absolutely correct in this statement. Everyone has things they are good at and things they are not so good at. When I was working on my masters I took a class on Howard Gardner's Multiple Intelligence Theory. It was very interesting, and since becoming aware of it, I have truly noticed differences in my classroom. There are kids who are very strong in their logical-mathematical intelligence, but weak in the verbal intelligence. There are numerous situations a child could encounter.

The bottom line is that you are correct about NCLB. It doesn't account for the fact that children have differences and because of their differences they will not all be the same upon leaving school, regardless of whatever testing is put into place.

-Matt

 

interesting survey:

http://www.ets.org/Media/Education_Topics/pdf/5884_Key_Findings.pdf

 

Your oft-quoted truism is bad math, and easily disproved. Suppose that I and 4 of my friends each make $100K a year, and we have dinner with someone who earns a millon dollars a year.

($1,000,000 + $100,000 * 5) / 6 = $250,000

So in this case, 5/6 of the group is below average. Of course, this assumes you're referring to the mean average.

 

I tend to viw this simply why not use these tests as part of assessment without making them critical to school funding and operations?

Its not the testing I mind children are tested in every class in every grade, K-12, but its the sole focus on them that is the concern for me. And the simple fact is if the standard is set fairly high which is the trend to add more difficulty more students will fail to make the standard to pass in one or more content areas. That is common sense. And worse it takes away from other content that is less critical to the test but I as a parent feel is important. Take vocational classes if the schools simply didn't force children to hammer away at mathematics for the FCAT to meet NCLB we could maybe offer two units in a vocational subject. That is still educational is it not even if not something the Federal Government or State of Florida finds important.

As for college my concern is if we keep flooding colleges with too many students who in most cases may drop out with debt, who is going to perform work we find important? I see too many people go to college, run up debts and then drop out with no meaningful skills and end up waiting tables or working in telemarketing anyway. I just want to have students avoid that if they clearly are not suited to a profession demanding a college degree at the bachelors level why make that the norm for the majority of students.

May I ask since I'm not an expert? How many professions as a percentage really demand a college degree at the bachelors level, not its the standard now but must have that over a two year degree or vocational school education or some form of on-the-job training?

 

Its not bad math but inappropriate math.
Small number statistics can be very misleading as you point out.
In this case options include the median salary ($100,000) or the harmonic mean salary ($117,647).

 

"thomaskolter: I just want to have students avoid that if they clearly are not suited to a profession demanding a college degree at the bachelors level why make that the norm for the majority of students"

I think that everyone should have the opportunity and a chance to expand their minds and ambitions. College students have to find out for themselves if a particular profession is for them from the associates level upward.

 

I think part of the problem is that high schools are having their arms twisted to promote college. What they should be doing, however, is promoted higher education. Not everyone needs to go to college, but everyone should continue learning. It's just that learning can also occur at trade schools. Schools should be promoting these as well.

-Matt

 

Check This Out

http://abcnews.go.com/2020

The program segment "College Degrees: Worth the Price of Admission?" its an interesting one.

Now that you watched that what is the better option sending students to college, going into debt and sometimes a great deal of debt and offering in return no increase in employment. That one woman earned the degree and now can't find a job in her field and wishes she studied Cosmotology instead. Maybe if someone told her earlier after strong assessment testing she should have earned an applied associates she might not be in this mess. NCLB like I said leaves out key working aptitudes and proficiencies. Physical, social and attitudes about work are all not important in the testing but can be vital to many careers. Most of those require more long term observation and outside assessment from say mentors and impartial adults.

I'm a firm believer is proper assessments and then tracking the student using all their aptitudes into a path that will best suit them with a way to earn a living. I'm not an idealist that is a grave concern for everyone.

I see students working at businesses who have no clue what it takes to work they come in with poor dress, don't speak proper English, learn to do their assigned tasks, bathe in some cases enough or follow the rules of a given workplace. Some do and some don't. I can teach someone basic bookkeeping at my workplace in a week or two on-the-job if they want to learn and has the right attitude. I have in fact done so with a few temps who really were go getters and most of those older persons in their 30's. They all went on and earned a vocational diploma or degree afterwards after some urging from me.

But these are the skills I feel should be pushed for say half the high school students: obeying rules, being prompt in coming to work, following orders, know basic mathematics and English, dress properly and have pride in ones self as an employee. In short I don't care if they have a college degree or even any degree in most cases can they be reliable and trainable acting as adults. NCLB doesn't help that but such things can be taught in High School if its part of a good program of vocational preparation.

 

Abner,

Your advice is sound. Mine were all paid in full upon graduation. Too many folks take out student loans and coast through college earning (or not) degrees with no forseeable return on a dollar. Not that esoteric learning is bad just not necessarily marketable when one wants to earn a living. We used to joke in school that we were earning advanced degrees in unemployability. However, over the years I have found my degree in English provided benefits I never fully realized when attending school.

I think there are exceptions were a student loan makes sense, but in every case having an education paid for when completed is a good deal.

 

- Colleges may lose business if not for the arm twisting . The reverse could actually happen. If high schools promote higher education, students may be motivated to attend college in increasing numbers. Regardless, I hope that my daughter's High School promotes college as an avenue for higher education. I will do the same of course. They could learn a specific trade if they wish. What I ask is that my daughters earn an associates degree at a community college that teaches the specific trade.

 

And I will state since in my state roughly half of the students seek employment right out of High School what about them? If your talking about students who tried hard as are at the bottom 30% of their class they are likely in Florida not going to earn a standard diploma or if they do be marginal in their academic skills. They need vocational guidance and training early in my opinion to make them employable upon graduation with skills and a good attitude towards being an employee. NCLB is not a service to this when so much emophasis is on mathematics much of it not relevant to work as they will see it, English that is again not really useful such as reading and using instructional materials and manuals and other subjects although those may have more cultural value are not vital.

Take a recent High School Graduate I hired last year she came in from the same private High School I intend to send my son. She had a large block of vocational courses bookkeeping, office procedures, business etiquette, computer classes, vocational mathematics, keyboarding and spanish and the like with Internships at a Bank and a Autodealer in accounting. I checked her references and with her teachers was impressed and hired her. She is a nearly perfect employee in the accounting dpeartment without any further education. She is earning a Certificate in Accounting however and I see her going far.

But I would b hard pressed to see the kind of rigor she recieved at any Public High School the courses used up 40% of her studies if not more and nothing relevant to the FCAT. She was a well prepared young lady and that would be nice to see people leaving High School already tooled up to work and learn. Why not encourage that to some degree for the students that do not intend to go on with their education or can't for various reasons? Why effectively teach to one set of tests and that is the end all of education?

I find that destructive to preparing our young people for the real world. But I do admire community colleges our local Saint Petersburg College has now four year programs but still has that level of education as a mission. Even I'm thinking about earning a certificate there perhaps in a business area to expand my skills.

Would flexibility of optionsbe so bad really have serious vocational training for students wanting employment right out of High School and offer educations for further college or post-secondary education and/or a mix of the two? And is NCLB necessary really that is the big issue isn't it is that helping or hurting. I clearly feel the latter.

 

"I find that destructive to preparing our young people for the real world. "

- We do what we can as loving parents.

"But I do admire community colleges our local Saint Petersburg College has now four year programs but still has that level of education as a mission. Even I'm thinking about earning a certificate there perhaps in a business area to expand my skills. "

- Great school ( http://www.spcollege.edu/ecampus/degrees/index.htm ).


"Would flexibility of optionsbe so bad really have serious vocational training for students wanting employment right out of High School and offer educations for further college or post-secondary education and/or a mix of the two? "

- I think a mix of the two is a good option. A hybrid option that combines vocational training and post-secondary preparation.

 

Well my view is take the bottom 25% of students in High School and focus on vocational education towards the world of work after they leave, these will not go onto college and likely have trouble in any community college but a vocational school perhaps is possible in some cases. They need real world practical educations. For the middle group a balanced education is far better they are likely going to need that. For the top 25% they would maybe benefit leaning to a college path more perhaps. The middle should be the normal route. But colleges are getting picky if good so students inclined to seek a college degree should have attention in that direction. Flexibility and strong aptitude testing and understanding is key and FCAT fails that.

Why is tracking students bad, since many students seem to need direction and guidance and a good number want to work out of High School it seems sensible to give them the tools there.

Our county does have a post-secondary school option the Pinellas Technical Education Center (PTEC) I find that a fine and low cost option for graduates seeking a trade or professional education. I hired a few students from their Accounting Program and was very impressed. I know our companies other departments hire from there such as in Customer Service. That might be a good model for the rest of the country. So at least our county is trying to meet industry needs.

 

http://www.myptec.org/

 

My nephew is a teacher in the Chicago Public School. He teaches High School English and Drama. He says that he spends most of his time teaching testing skills to the kids.

 

NAEP Standards

http://nces.ed.gov/nationsreportcard/reading/whatmeasure.asp

With this as just one the Reading Standards are you shocked what is wrong with this picture. For me basic literacy for an 8th Grader should be can they read signs, read a newspaper and given a decent amount of time read and get a basic understanding of a grade level book. Analyzing and making judgements on the possible outcomes of stories and the like seem rather higher functioning reading skills.

http://nces.ed.gov/nationsreportcard/mathematics/whatmeasure.asp

The math standards when did algebra and geometry become necessary for a person unless a trade demands it at 12th Grade, I will be blunt if this is a standard used in standard testing for NCLB I would never have graduated. Algrebra and geometry as I see it can be higher functioning mathematics not what is needed to get along at a basic level. Most professions really don't demand these do they?

The problem is what standard to use for NCLB as in what is average, then what do we do with students in say the bottom 25% of the skill range in each area tested who may not pass a prtion or portions of state testing?

Its not for me a small issue I seriously think the educational community is very idealistic in their assumptions on student skills and what is a basic skill base. I'm not calling myself an expert but I never use mathematics at the levels demanded and I do rather well in my field.

 

This can become a delicate issue.

In regards to your first point (above) I would like to point out that mathematics is more than just the manipulation of numbers, parentheses, brackets, etc. Mathematics is a set of rules that teach people how to logically solve problems. The basic skill learned in mathematics is logical thinking. That is why it is required of every student.

In regards to your second point, what do we do with the kids at the bottom of the class? We help them to get jobs that they can perform successfully.

 

Without a diploma, in Florida the FCAT makes or breaks students if they fail any part they get a Completion Diploma not a Standard Diploma so many opportunities are lost. Military service, vocational training and the like demand a GED or Standard Diploma in a good number of cases.

I'm not questioning the need for standards just are they too high, for example one can do many jobs without understanding algebra and geometry and lower performing students may just not "get" those areas regardless of how much you hammer it into them. As for logical thinking and the like I will point out again that can and will be above a large portion of students abilities.

Same with reading I can understand being literate as in reading a newspaper or instructions or a training manual but the tasks demanded are again over what I would call basic literacy. Just read what is actually asked for that is not just strongly functional literacy but rather advanced applications and understanding. Like understanding different moods and themes is complex when applied to a book of adult level, did you ever read a book from a serious writer of fiction? I assume you have read The Last of the Mohicans in the original text its very complex and has many themes. Not to mention demanding an understanding of terms and period events that is also complex.

I'm just pointing out this is why NCLB will indeed leave many children behind the testing based off this work I noted is setting up unrealistic goals and expectations. Not just basic understanding but rather advanced understanding. We should aim high with students but if they can't measure up there is nothing in a reserve option for them after 8th Grade such as waiving the standardized state tests for intensive vocational education that could be of great value to such students. If they left High School trainable with a certification on a trade or profession and a standard diploma that would be better. Say they train in barbaring and leave with a state license and certificate in that, maybe supplemented with business and office skills. But no, the schools just want to ignore this problem and the Federal government is stepping on the states and local school systems.