I Challenge Lawrie Miller

Discussion in 'Off-Topic Discussions' started by Rich Douglas, Aug 29, 2008.

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  1. Rich Douglas

    Rich Douglas Well-Known Member

    Since Bruce closed the thread that, unfortunately, changed focus from its original topic to (a) Tony's rigor and (b) my "attributions" in my dissertation. Well, I challenge Lawrie to support his insinuations regarding my research.

    What about it Lawrie? More bluster? Or do you actually have something? Well, we're waiting....
     
  2. Abner

    Abner Well-Known Member


    Can you please post a link to that thread? I am a bit lame today, and I cannot find it.

    Thanks,

    Abner
     
  3. Anthony Pina

    Anthony Pina Active Member

    It was "Poll: What is your academic level?" Lawrie made a comment about the Ed.D. degree being a "trade degree," which was fine (albeit a poor choice of words), but he also made some inaccurate statements about the Ed.D. vs. Ph.D. degrees, which, of course, brought me out of the wood work. He challenged me to produce studies supporting my view that, on a national level, there is no appreciable difference between the two degrees. When I cited six of the 22 studies in my files and challenged him to do likewise (which he couldn't, because research studies supporting his point of view do not exist), the thread started to get bizarre. Bruce rightly closed the thread, since it had become way off-topic and the exchange was starting to go nowhere.

    Lawrie's challenge to my "rigor" was pretty amusing, given the irony of the situation, so it didn't bother me. But he made some unkind personal remarks to Rich Douglas, so I do not blame Rich for being upset.

    Frankly, I'm still stunned at Lawrie's posts in that thread. We've both been posting on Degreeinfo (off and on) since 2001 and my experience with him has always been pleasant and I have always though highly of his work on BA in 4 Weeks.:(
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Aug 29, 2008
  4. Ian Anderson

    Ian Anderson Active Member

  5. Bruce

    Bruce Moderator

    FWIW, I closed that thread because it was getting waaaay off topic. Now that there's a thread dedicated specifically for this subject, I'm going to open the original thread.

    Let the thrashings commence. :D
     
  6. Abner

    Abner Well-Known Member


    Wow! I read it. I am not quite sure what to say. The thread did take a bizarre turn, and not on the part of you or Rich.

    Ay dios mio!

    Abner
     
  7. Lawrie Miller

    Lawrie Miller New Member

    Yawn . . . of all the dumb things you have said and done since I have known you, issuing this challenge has got to be the dumbest. You were caught in a lie, you lucked-out when the thread was closed, yet you elect to re-open this can of worms that can only serve to injure your reputation further.

    OK, son, I'm coming, but remember that this is the Labor Day weekend, and some of us have family and commitments. It occurs to me though that this must be the first time in the history of the world, that a turkey has lobbied for an early Thanksgiving.

    I try to be very careful in how I word things, and when I say that you are a fraud with respect to the presentation of your credentials, you can be sure that I mean what I say and that I can back it up with documentary evidence.

    In this instance you have claimed* you have a PhD in Education, and that is untrue. Your degree is in Interdisciplinary Studies (requires two different disciplines), and the two degrees are NOT the same. Your degree title is documented on the front page of your dissertation project, a page that you yourself wrote! Actually, it’s not styled a dissertation, but rather a “Project Demonstrating Excellence”.

    *In the thread What’s your credential level, #39, Douglas wrote: And I do have a Ph.D. in Education--Higher Education. I know that the Ed.D. is the academic equal to the Ph.D. in Education.

    This is not a trivial distinction. If a job applicant came to you claiming a master’s in Computer Science, and you discovered it actually to be an MA in Interdisciplinary Studies with one of the required emphases in Computing and the other in History, you would be justified in calling his representation of his degree, fraudulent. At PhD level, being economical with the truth with respect to your credential is not acceptable, and you should know that. In fact you do know it**, but you did it anyway.

    **In the UMUC thread post #127 Douglas wrote “. . . So, omitting the "UC" from "UMUC" is not only a lie from a practical perspective--purposely omitting material information in order to leave a false impression--it is also a lie according to the law. . .”

    Well, you said it, Rich. You then compounded the offense by lying again to cover the first lie***

    ***In the thread, What’s your credential level, #44, Douglas wrote: You're wrong about how interdisciplinary is used. You're wrong about the title (not "Interdisciplinary Studies"). . . When I graduated from Union, all non-psychology learners . . .earned a Ph.D. in Interdisciplinary Arts and Sciences, along with a concentration and a specialization. . . [i/]

    Well I guess you were “wrong” too, when you typed your degree title in big bold letters on your dissertation project front page as” PhD in Interdisciplinary Studies”. Why would you write that if it was neither accurate nor true? Well, of course you wouldn’t, would you?

    However, giving you the benefit of the doubt we checked the conferring institution’s PhD program web site, and it confirms the degree is in “Individualized Studies”****. Then we wrote to the program’s admissions counselor, Regina Sewell, mentioned the alleged prior “Ph.D. in Interdisciplinary Arts and Sciences” too, and asked whether representing the degree as that or as a PhD in Education was acceptable – it wasn’t. The doctorate is conferred and should be declared as a PhD in Individualized Studies. She did not corroborate your story*****

    **** http://www.tui.edu/cohort/index.asp
    ***** “The Ph.D. is in Interdisciplinary Studies. It will be conferred on your transcript as the Ph.D. in Interdisciplinary Studies along with your area of concentration. . . . we have three areas of concentration: Ethical and Creative Leadership, Humanities and Society, and Public Policy and Social Issues.” -


    This has nothing to do with "Tony's rigor", that’s a non sequitur designed to distract. This is all about YOU and your proven mendacity. You lied about your credentials Rich, at the very time you were warning others not to lie about theirs. You were accusing others of “passing-off” their degree, while you cynically misrepresented your own in another thread. Therefore by definition, in addition to being a liar, your are also a certified hypocrite. Indeed, it was that dripping hypocrisy that led me to expose you in the first place. Had it not been for your constant finger-wagging at the generally minor or often non-existent transgressions of others, I’d have let it pass.

    Did you present your doctorate to your current employer as a PhD in Education? If you did, and the job was offered to you in part or in whole because they believed you held that degree, then you have committed fraud and you are risking civil AND possibly criminal prosecution. I doubt even you would be that asinine.

    Finally, your misrepresentation of my statements about your survey of the field and you attributions as these relate to your, “Project of Excellence”.

    I was straight forward then and I will be now. I was urged by others to inspect your project dissertation for proper attribution. The context was that this was in some way related to me. You have chosen to keep your doctoral project work out of cyberspace and effectively out of the public domain by specifically prohibiting it being made available in electronic form. I am sure you have your reasons for this. What are they, by the way? Why have you sought to limit access, so? I can’t imagine why you would want to do that?

    Anyway, I did purchase the hard copy version (the only version available) some time ago, but did not do diligence on it. However, given that we now know you have no ethical problem lying through your back teeth when it suits you, it MAY be that the warnings/heads-up I was given have merit. I hope they prove groundless – seriously.

    There is a huge difference between an insufficiently thorough survey of the field and any consequent omissions or incomplete attributions, and lying about your degree. Passing-off your degree as something it is not, is FAR more serious – unless of course the nature of the lack of citation in your dissertation to original sources, is serious and deliberate, evidencing intentional plagiarism, and I don’t think even you could be that stupid. Could you?
     
  8. Lawrie Miller

    Lawrie Miller New Member

    The hubris is overwhelming. The guy lied about the nature of his degree while chiding others for doing the same.

    Some unkind personal remarks about Rich? Well, let's see.

    Rich Douglas wrote:
    "I didn't want to make this personal, but Lawrie, you're an uninformed loudmouth. ", and "Lawrie Miller, troll. Seen before, but not quite to this extent. I recommend a non-feeding diet." AND "Self-appointed troll:"


    This was your poor buddy's response when I caught him lying about his credentials. Now, did you just not read that bit, or what? Do you recognise it as the response of a man who has been caught and who trying to bluster his way to a better place.

    He lied about his credentials Tony, but that's OK with you, I guess, he's your friend, after all, and what's a bit of academic fraud between friends? Hmm?
     
  9. Lawrie Miller

    Lawrie Miller New Member

    Errata

    The two references to “Individualized Studies” appearing in the passage above, should of course, be to "Interdisciplinary Studies"
    .
     
  10. Rich Douglas

    Rich Douglas Well-Known Member

    Which, as I pointed out, would still be inaccurate. Funny how that doesn't seem important when you do it, but when others might, it becomes a "lie."

    You've implied--without even a shred of evidence--that there is something wrong with "attribution" in my dissertation. It seems you've done so because of the way I described my degree. A description, by the way, I maintain is utterly accurate and not wrong in any material way. I demonstrated this in a later post, which you've conveniently igored.

    The OP of this thread was about that subject. Instead, you've shown yourself to be a troll by posting a non-relevant harrangue, only to once again imply that there might be something wrong with what I've written--while acknowledging that you've not done "due diligence" (whatever that means).

    I submit that you are:

    (a) Unqualified to conclude such things,
    (b) Wrong in your self-admitted unsubstantiated accusations, and
    (c) A troll.

    Take all the time you want, Lawrie. Enjoy your weekend. Take a month, or a year, or forever. I couldn't care less. This thread will be waiting for you whenever you choose to bump it.

    In fact, perhaps time will heal the wounds to your own reputation you yourself have caused.
     
  11. me again

    me again Well-Known Member

    Still waiting for an answer...

    I'm still trying to figure out how Lawrie Miller equates a doctoral dissertation with a trade school, such as auto mechanics, culinary arts and other trades.

    < scratches head >

    Lawrie Miller, you were simply asked where you got your doctoral degree from because you claim to be extremely knowledgeable about the dissertation process, as well as how it should be defined. However, the question remains unanswered: Where did you get your doctoral degree from? Are issues of self-esteem linked to this question? Inquiring minds want to know! :)
     
  12. Rich Douglas

    Rich Douglas Well-Known Member

    I found this little tidbit on Lawrie's own site, regarding his educational accomplishments:

    DEGREES
    Graduated from University of the State of New York, Regents College, with a Liberal Arts degree, a Bachelor of Science in Political Science1 (concentration), overall GPA 3.40

    Graduated from Regents College (now Excelsior College) with a Bachelor of Science in General Business summa cum laude, overall GPA 3.92


    1Completed requirements for an additional liberal arts degree major, this time in Psychology. USNY regulations prohibited conferral of another degree in the same liberal arts program, however.



    Forget that it's smarmy for alluding to a degree that you can't have because of a technicality. (Either you've earned it or you have not.) That's bad enough. But the phrase "liberal arts degree major, this time in Psychology" is technically inaccurate. It is a concentration in Psychology, not a major. I contend that such things are not material; they don't truly mislead anyone. (I didn't claim a "major," btw.) But Lawrie uses such a thing as the basis for calling someone a liar.

    Those who live in glass houses....
     
  13. Dave C.

    Dave C. New Member

    find the happy place

    *yawn*

    ajshfjkfhdjksfhaljkhgjkhfglkjhfgjkhfjgkhsfkgjhafjkhgdfjkh

    (Head hits keyboard)
     
  14. sentinel

    sentinel New Member

    Try the ESCape key.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 2, 2008
  15. Rich Douglas

    Rich Douglas Well-Known Member

    Miller started it. I'm just putting it perspective and posting a challenge that will, no doubt, end it.
     
  16. Paul S Rogers

    Paul S Rogers New Member

    :( Maybe I am missing something here, is this beneficial to the distance-learning forum? Maybe this is merely a catfight between some very articulate (written) and well-schooled individuals?

    Take it outside boys! I’ll supply the boxing gloves.

    Paul S Rogers, LCSW, RN, CNS (retired)
     
  17. Paul S Rogers

    Paul S Rogers New Member

    You know, I am totally wrong! This is an off topic forum item…go at it boys

    Paul S Rogers, LCSW, RN, CNS
     
  18. Tireman 44444

    Tireman 44444 Well-Known Member

    I am staying out of all this. I barely have enough intelligence to open a door. :)
     
  19. Rich Douglas

    Rich Douglas Well-Known Member


    This isn't a "cat fight." This is simply an invitation to Mr. Miller to support his insinuations. In fact, I would hope this thread would lie dormant until if and when Mr. Miller deigns us with the facts of his case. If he has any.
     
  20. Anthony Pina

    Anthony Pina Active Member

    Sorry, my friend...I won't bite. Name calling does not interest me. You know how to engage me (show me some real empirical data on how the Ed.D. and Ph.D. are so different that one is a "trade degree," while the other is not). That is what started this whole mess in the first place.
     

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