Legitimate, Unaccredited DL M.Div. Programs

Anyone know, offhand, of any good unaccredited schools that offer reasonably rigorous M.Div. programs by correspondence? I'd be particularly interested in hearing about any Roman Catholic, eastern Orthodox, or liberal schools offering an M.Div. through this method.

I'm aware of Columbia Evangelical Seminary (which I regard as quite legitimate), but that is so far the *only* decent unaccredited school I've heard of that offers an M.Div. by distance learning.

The accredited options: TRACS-accredited American Bible College and Seminary (http://www.abcs.edu), which offers a Bible-centered M.Div. by correspondence; regionally accredited Southern Christian University (http://www.southernchristian.edu), which offers a ministry-centered M.Div. online with an optional specialization in marriage and family studies; TRACS-accredited and regionally accredited Liberty University (http://www.liberty.edu), which offers a low-residency Bible-centered M.Div.; and the University of Pretoria (http://www.up.ac.za), which offers a correspondence-based academic M.Div. focusing on Old Testament studies.

I'm not interested in doing this sort of program myself, at least not right now -- I've pretty much settled on the GST/Potch Ph.D. program -- but it would be nice to know what's available along these lines, since folks do ask me about this sort of thing from time to time.


Peace,

Tom

 

Tom,
Try Faith Seminary. http://www.faithseminary.edu/
They are from a conservative Lutheran body. Not exactly what you asked for, but I've heard only good things about their program.

Barry

 

First, kiddies, let's not turn this one into a flame fest. I respect Tom as a colleague - yea, even a friend - but I disagree with him about the legitimacy of a totally external M.Div. program. The sole] basis of an M.Div. program is pastoral preparation. The M.Div. is, therefore, a 90-credit "first professional" degree; it's academic counterparts are the 30-36 credit M.A. or the 60-credit M.A.R.

In other words, ya wanna be a scholar? Then get an M.A. or M.A.R. Or, if you already have an M.Div., a Th.M. or S.T.M. The only reason to get an M.Div. is if you want to be a pastor.

Now, the obvious question: How could one justify a totally external M.Div. any more than one could justify, say, a totally external Psy.D. or Ph.D. in Psychology? Being a pastor involves more than book learning and mere academic preparation. Therefore, if it doesn't have an accountability factor - such as a residency, internship or practicum, etc., the degree is not only not legitimate, it is potentially dangerous.

My opinion of CES is well known (degree mill). In addition to what I wrote about them in chapter 12 of my book Name It & Frame It (full-text surfable at http://levicoff.tripod.com), I encourage interested persons to go to http://www.shields-research.org/Novak/CES/ces.htm. There you will find a photo page of CES that is quite revealing. Unfortunately, the photos have been taken off the page, but the text remains; to see the photos, just drop the lst part of the URL and go to http://www.shields-research.org/Novak/CES, where you can click on the individual JPG files to see the photos. Res ipsa loquitor - the thing speaks for itself. In my opinion, CES is in the same class as MIGS - it may (or may not) be a sincere effort, but its scale is far too small for a school that purports to grant doctoral degrees, especially in helping professions.

 

I am currently pursuing a M.Div through Liberty Baptist Theological Seminary (LBTS). I find the work to be fairly rigorous. I also think that the $115.00 per semester hour tuition is a steal.

The course materials are well done. It is easy to contact professors, advisors and library staff. I would recommend Liberty to anyone who is seeking a low residence theological education. That is, anyone who agrees with Baptist theology and doctrine.

Take care,

Eddie Hodge

 

First: Good to see you here, man.

I'm going to completely ignore the CES business on general principles, but I would like to make a point of saying for the record that I think Rick's a fine Christian, and I've never seen anything about CES that has led me to believe it's illegitimate. It's very nontraditional (it uses a mentor network rather than a campus per se), but I've picked up nothing but good vibes from it myself. Steve would agree with me that you shouldn't listen to *either* of us blindly; investigate the facts and make up your own mind.

Now, on to the M.Div. thing:

First, I totally agree that ministers should be equipped to deal with pastoral issues. I'm not sure that pastors can't be educated by correspondence (see the Epistles), but I think that there should be some residential component involved in becoming an ordained minister. That's common sense.

A few facts I'd like to bring into play here, though:

(a) Most M.Div. programs focus on Bible and theology. According to the United Methodist Church, M.Div. equivalency must be demonstrated in three areas: Bible, theology, and pastoral ministry. In a 90 hour M.Div., each would get about 30 hours. Only 1/3 of the M.Div. necessarily needs to deal with pastoral ministry, and most of that can probably be taught by correspondence. Liberty University takes this perspective and requires what could flippantly be called "clinical residencies."

(b) Some denominations do not require any formal coursework in pastoral ministry. The Unitarian-Universalist Association is a prime example; the pastoral ministry requirement is fulfilled through internships, so it doesn't really matter whether you've taken any courses on it at all. Likewise, Jewish denominations use the M.A., and not the M.Div., for ordination (although to be fair, the ordination-track M.A. involves some coursework that we would call pastoral).

(c) Some denominations, for theological reasons, don't require students to have a formal pastoral education of any kind. Congregational Bible churches in Mississippi tend to expect ministers to be well-versed in the Bible and the basics of Christian theology, but don't really care whether they've taken pulpit speech, pastoral counseling, or the like; I suspect that most of CES's target audience falls into the same category. I've heard many a churchgoer down here complain that residential seminary actually damages a pastor by stripping all the spontaneity from his ministry.

So there you have it. I don't really feel comfortable saying what every denomination should or shouldn't require (I'm certainly in no position to be handing out spiritual mandates); but I do know what some denominations do and don't require, and I think that's the issue at hand for the piqued prospective pastor. If your denomination will accept a nonresidential M.Div., I see no reason not to pursue one; and if your denomination won't accept a nonresidential M.Div., it doesn't matter whether it involves some sort of residential pastoral ministry component or not.

The name of the game here is, I think, honesty. If you're considering a nonresidential M.Div. and want to see if your denominational leadership will accept it as a real M.Div., be completely honest about the fact that it's nonresidential; there's nothing more ridiculous than trying to bamboozle somebody in the name of God. Likewise, don't lie to your flock and say you spent two years attending a residential seminary; be open about how you earned it and why you earned it that way.

But given our current ministry shortage, I'm not gonna be too upset if some denominations are willing to give some credence to the whole idea of a completely nonresidential M.Div. Heck, it's the perogative of any denomination to make an exception to the M.Div. rule altogether whenever it seems like a good idea; Steve and I may disagree over whether it's the right thing to do, but in the grand scheme of things, what we think of the idea doesn't really matter a whole heck of a lot.


Peace,

Tom


[Note: This message has been edited by Tom Head]

 

I'm curious why this is a question specifically about *unaccredited* schools that offer M.Div's by distance education, as opposed to accredited schools that do so.

Is there any kind of situation when a non-accredited program might be preferrable? If so, what kind of situation and why?

 

Only because I'm afraid I've found all of the available accredited DL M.Div. programs (Liberty, SCU, Pretoria, ABCS);
if you or somebody else reading this knows of others, I'd love to hear about them.


Peace,

Tom

 

In my field of Orthotics and Prosthetics we must have a 1 year residency in each disipline before we sit for a certification exam.
Of course the schooling is traditional, but
I could see a M.Div. completely distance for the Degree and then a residency program after the degree is awarded.

Another way would be a complete distance program with concurrent training in your home church (this method would default to Steve's not totally distance, but it would not have to be totally involved with the school.


Who look for this type of program? Some one like me, who is looking to grow and teach in my faith while keeping my current job. In my non-denominational church I could teach and preach without any paper, so a totally distance M.Div. would kind of be icing on the cake.

Dan
bringing the Gospel and artificial legs to the third world.

 

Try http://www.bethanybc.edu

 

I have my Bachelors from Bethany. Other Schools do not accept Bethany's credits.
Bethany provides a basis for a good education, but it is up to you to do the work. I got the impression that, if one wanted to, he can get a degree from Bethany without putting in alot of the work that I did.
The Bachelor's program does give some credit for life experience. They gave me 30 credits for having attended the corrections acadamy (336 clock hours) and having been a youth minister for 2 years.
The school does require some residence, even for the Bachelor's program, but I understand it is sometimes waived.
Maybe this is the case with other schools that are called degree mills, but if you want a good education at Bethany, you can get it.
Having said all of that, if one desires a degree, I would recommend an accredited school. It is very disappointing to apply to a school and have them not accept your past work.
An accredited degree does cost alot more, but it is more valuable.

 

Well, no M.Div, but the Catholic Distance University offers a Masters in Religious Studies (MRS) and a Master of Arts in Religious Studies (MA). It's accredited by DETC.
http://www.cdu.edu/academic.htm

------------------
Kristin Evenson Hirst
DistanceLearn.About.com

 

I am afraid that I do not know of any legitimate unaccredited M.Div programs. However, to the list of accredited ones (TRACS), I would add Luther Rice Seminary. If I remember correctly their M.Div is available completely by DL or residence or a combination. They can accessed at http://www.lrs.edu. They have a list of alumni who are fairly prominent, although mostly Southern Baptist. These range from Charles Stanley to the wife of Southern Baptist President Paige Patterson.
Dr. Dorothy Patterson has a D.Min.

As for the issue of the building in some sort of supervison and oversight for candidates for a pastoral degree, I believe this can be done. I think in the case of ABCS, you can have an internship built in as part of the M.Div program. Probably, not a bad idea depending on how one wants to use the degree.

At any rate, you do good work Tom (keep it up). Were you not considering pursuing the Episcopal priesthood?

North

 

Shall I mention...Trinity Seminary with the University of Liverpool accreditation? http://www.trinitysem.edu/catalog/ttstoc.html

Regent states that ATS allows no more than 2/3 of the M.Div. coursework to be completed by DL. They fill in the rest with 1-weekers at Regent or some week-end classes at a N. VA. facility. http://www.regent.edu/acad/schdiv/DE/information.html

 

Dear North,

Greetings!

The problem with studying in the Anglican tradition is that not much is offered via distance learning recognized by the House of Bishops by way of the Advisory Board of Ministry, at least directly from England. I recall that St. John's College in Nottingham offers distance theological training in the Anglican tradition, but their courses are rather "sandwich courses" by which one needs to work in a parish concurrently.

I hope this helps.

With kindest regards,


Karlos Alberto "El Caballero" Lacaye
[email protected]

 

The original post specified *Legitimate, Unaccredited DL M.Div. Programs.*

Trinity Seminary meets the criteria of being unaccredited, however, the rest of the equation is debatable.

Trinity's accreditation by the University of Liverpool (which has been discussed and debated endlessly on aed, etc.) does not follow the normal guidelines of accreditation practiced by UK schools, i.e., where the accrediting institution awards the degree. Liverpool awards no degrees to Trinity students. The Trinity student pays a $225.00 UoL accreditation fee, which provides a beautifully embossed UoL sticker on the Trinity diploma.

So a word of caution to those who may seriously consider Trinity. The degrees will not enjoy broad recognition in the academic community in terms of being equivalent to a RA degree. This caveat is not to demean Trinity's objective of training for ministry, only that the Trinity advertising which states that they are accredited does not mean accreditation in the sense of RA, ATS, GAAP, AABC, or even TRACS, or their equivalent.

Russell

 

Trinity Theological Seminary in Indiana was one of the options I considered for my Masters.
The offer 11 different M.Div programs. One of the criteria for degree mills is that they offer degrees in too many areas. I am not saying that Trinity is a degree mill, as I have not researched them enough, nor am I qualified to make that judgement.
I will say that after researching them as much as I did, applying and paying the $50 fee, speaking to the admissions couselor (who was not helpful in assiting in program selection to best suit my goals and did not know which programs are available), and looking at other options, I decided against Trinity.
Luther Rice, an accredited school, was my first choice of schools, but due to my unaccredited bachelor's, they would not even consider me for the M.Div. program.
If it is an option to you, I reitterate my recommendation of selecting an accredited school.

 

I was mistaken. Trinty offers 11 Masters programs, only three of them are M.Div. It is interesting to note that, while most M.Div Programs are 3 years (90+ credits) beyond a Bachelor's, Trinity only requires two years - one year of masters study (32 credits) and one year of M.Div. Study (32 credits).
Bethany, (mentioned above) my unaccredited alma mater, does not offer an M.Div. They offer three Masters degree programs -
Masters of Theological Studies
Masters of Ministry
Masters of Religion
Some of these programs offer two different concentrations.

 

I did find this degree program. The price is right, and it is unaccredited. I am guessing that it is just a notch below the Trinity degree. They offer a Doctor of Divinity.
Progressive