Teaching with an NA Degree

So you support the RA’s monopolistic tendencies to restrict market entry and limit competition.. good to know. Calling an NA degree ‘fraud’ is a bit naïve, my good anonymous friend…

 

I hate to be blunt, but if you want to teach, teach. Start by doing weekend courses at a community center, do some public speaking, teach an adult education course at night, offer to do a course at a summer camp, teach a night course at a community college, etc. The key is to get out there, see if you actually like teaching, and then get really good at it. I was on faculty hiring committees for over a decade, and we hired all kinds of good people who ranged from having no degree but tons of interesting experience, to PhDs. The common element among these people was that they were all good, natural teachers - enthusiastic, inspiring people who could command a lecture theater with 250 prone-to-bored students. I'm sure I am oversimplifying the matter, but I find the passion for actually teaching to be absent from a lot of these threads. Have a great 2008!

 

In the realm of academia.....yes.
I am sorry, but if all my academic credentials are from RA schools, and some has the same credentials from NA schools and both candidates have closely the same experience/credentials, and both are applying for the same position, and I (with the RA degrees) lose out on the position (at a RA school) to a NA degree holding individual...then that upsets me. And personally I find that the school that would do that is "discrediting" their own students and school of academics if they pursue this avenue.

I have absoultely no issues with someone obtaining vaild NA degrees, to ensure success in the business market or any other market... however, in academia, this has become a very controversial issue and a sore spot among many individuals working in this field.

Personally, I know of a few friends that hold legit and valid NA degrees in the area of business, marketing and information technology... I have no problems that they went this route to better themselves personally, financially and for the sole purpose of marketability. But I do have an issue when it comes to the field of academics and teaching, especially when colleges, universities and schools make a big deal out of rejecting transfer credits from NA schools, but then hire faculty with NA degrees!!!

I am sorry, but IMO it is not right.... I am not working my tail off to obtain the best education from RA colleges & universities to be dupped in the academic market from a NA degree holder. There is a reason for regional accreditiation....

My 2 cents. Thanks.

 

I seem to find several arguments in your posts, all jumbled up. I think I agree with some of them, but not others. I think you are saying that, in your opinion, inside of academia, you would consider it fraudulent if an institution had you on as faculty, and because of this had to turn away someone with a better degree, say someone from a tier 2 or tier 1 school (I thinking Montana State is a tier 3 school).

I think any argument like this is flawed, because it would allow me to edit your prior post to look like this:

While I’m sure this happens all the time, it doesn’t make the fact that you are pursuing a tier 3 degree fraudulent, or discredit a school from hiring you if they feel you are a better fit for the position…

 

It feels right, but no one is really measuring this, most of all DETC.

 

Are you saying that someone in Florida had their licence revoked because they had a NA degree? Was this in the last three years or before?

Ted N.

 

I seriously doubt all of this, I believe this person is just ringing bells to ring them.

 

Since he mentions both Ohio and Florida in one breath, I'm guessing that he's remembering a situation where the very legitimate Otterbein College in Ohio granted a bunch of teachers transfer credit for "coursework" taken at a degree mill run by an ex-teacher in Florida.

 

Excuse me... I do not appreciate the fact that you think I am stirring up things around here.

I am not sure about certificates these people had... in fact I do not even think they had certificates at the time - the two I personally know of were new hires and more than likely "in-process" of trying to apply for certification.

Two specific individuals that I had worked with in two separate k-12 institutions were removed from their positions because their BA/BS degrees were not RA accredited. Which meant the FLDOE did not accept these degrees as being valid or on their approved list of colleges and universities.
If I remember correctly, and it has been about 3-4 years, one individual's degree was a BA and it was a NA school and the DOE indicated that this person was not allowed to teach and receive a teaching certificate - and therefore he/she was terminated.

The second individual was a good teacher, and this person held a (NA) BS and working on finishing a (RA) MA degree's ... I do not recall the name of the school, but I remember then it had been mentioned numerous of times on this board (I remember looking it up at the time), unfortunately, the FLDOE conducted their so-called audit for re-accreditation (which is an every 4-5 year thing), and found the school had hired a teacher with a NA degree, and penalized the school, and the school board was forced to terminate this person's employment.

Unfortunately, with Florida hurting for teacher's in the state across the board, many school districts are trying to fill spots and cutting corners to get people in the classrooms. In this one case, the district was caught and was forced to terminate this person. So, I do believe "many" school districts (public) are very strict on who they hire, and do through background checks.

I can personally speak from experience on the academic background during a schools recertification/accrediation, because the high schoo and district I currently teach in, went through a weeks worth of audits and such, and every, and I mean "every" teacher was interviewed by these FLDOE auditors regarding verification of our academic background and credentials, very odd process, but it happened - they had copies of all our transcripts, certifications, and degrees (which I assume came from our district office).

So they are checking and verifying....and that is all I can about that.

 

TED....

To add more on my comment, the state of Florida is accredited by (for those who do not know), Southern Association of Colleges and Schools (SACS), and our union and district indicated that FLDOE is taking measures to ensure that all teachers in the state are certified and hold "vaild" degrees from colleges and universities from one of the main regional accreditors;
- The Middle States Association of Colleges and Schools
- New England Association of Schools and Colleges
- North Central Association of Colleges and Schools
- TheNorthwest Commission on Colleges and Universities
- Northwest Association of Accredited Schools
- Western Association of Schools and Colleges
- The Southern Association of Colleges and Schools

Yes, I do recall the whole Otterbein College and (East Coast) Florida scandel, in fact my sister-in-law was attending Otterbein College at the time and she was calling me about this left and right... I did not know anyone who was part of this, but I can tell you that after this was resolved, FLODE has been cracking down hard on people who teach in Florida, checking their academic credentials, their course work for recertification, etc... this could be one reason FLDOE is doing what they are doing, and schools are not messing around.

 

IMO, that's quite harsh. As we all know, there is a HUGE difference between an NA school and a degree mill, and rejecting NA degrees out of hand is a bit elitist if you ask me.

I think a much better system would be a comprehensive review of every applicant's credentials, including their curriculum and teacher preparation. If Florida (and indeed every state) is having a teacher shortage, perhaps it's time to look beyond the traditional requirements?

I think it's pretty silly that in my home state (MA), I can teach HS history with a RA criminal justice degree as long as I get a barely passing score on the certification test, while someone with a NA history degree can't even take the certification test, never mind get a passing score.

 

Just so we are dealing in facts, can you show me where NA degree’s are prohibited in writing for K-12 teaching somewhere? I did a quick google and found this FL DOE web site, that doesn’t say jack diddley about RA verse NA:

http://www.fldoe.org/edcert/level3.asp

it says: “If you hold a bachelor's degree from an accredited or approved institution…”.. I'm not saying I know one way or the other, but I think we need facts here..

DEL

 

This topic doesn't interest me that much because teaching is not my thing. The only thing I want to teach is Martial Arts, and I am more than qualified to do so. But I digress.

Dave, your question remindes me of discussion either here or over at DD, I don't remember. Somebody posted a question like: "Can you teach at a CC with a NA Master's?" Dr. Levicoff resonded as such:

"NO! BWAHAAAAAAAAAAAAHAAAAAHAAA!!!"

Dr. Bear countered this argument by citing some community college hiring policy which merely pointed to an "accredited" degree. In essence, he disputed what Dr. Levicoff stance was. I do not believe anyone was able to disprove the illustrious Dr. Bear's response. If I remember correctly, he also cited some examples.

In summation, I believe the most qualified individual should be chosen. This is competitive market, and an employer is shopping for the choice cut of meat. An example you say? Our own Jamie Gauthier. He holds NA degrees, I believe up to the Master's level. He was chosen by a CC probably because he has advanced knowledge in the criminal justice system, and was able to beat out his competition in the interviewing stages. In addition, he teaches at RA and NA schools. He is a human dynamo much like Dave Lady, and it comes through in interviews.

What am I trying to say? Hell, I am not even sure. I just felt like writing something. To Nobycane, I would say obtain your degrees, interview to the best of your ability, and you will suceed. Do not worry about who has what degree. It is a waste of your positive energy.

I wish you the best.

Abner

 

BTW, UoP doesn't recognize NA degrees for instructors, even though they accept them for admission. Go figure.

When I was a Campus Chair, I had a faculty member with a doctorate from Central European University. At the time, CEU was an RA candidate, and was accredited by the NY Board of Regents, a recognized accreditor. But UoP would recognize neither RA candidacy, nor NY Board of Regents. Fortunately, RA was granted right after that and I was able to get her approved to teach and get doctoral-level pay. While I was impressed with UoP's diligence, I was frustrated with their ignorance regarding non-RA accreditation.

 

Good info Abner. My concern here is that the discussion seemed to be about teaching K-12, not at the CC or higher level. From what little reading I have done in the great state of Florida, I can find nothing in writing to suggest there is discrimination around what type of ‘legitimately accredited’ degree a K-12 teacher may have. The focus is on passing the certification tests as far as I can tell..

I get a little concerned when people post such discriminatory things, anonymously, without any substantiated data what so ever. Some folks come to a board like this, read that stuff, and then further propagate the bigotry, thinking they are informed...

DEL

 

I agree. CC level is different from K-12. The correlation I was trying make is this. There are similar issues in the example I cited about teaching at the CC level with an NA degree. Many stated as fact that it was basically impossible to teach at that level with an NA degree. Dr. Bear diffused that argument.

You make a reasonable request. Where is the contract language clearly delineating the difference between an "Accredited degree"? I do agree missinformation breeds quickly.

Having said. The future for NA accreditors is good and is getting better. More acceptance and constructive coalitions are occuring everyday. 2008 will open some floodgates, trust me on this.

Abner

 

DEL

I really feel like I dropped a bomb here with my comment. Hopefully the links will work. The Florida Administrative Code indicates that NA degrees are allowable for teacher certification.

Clicking the link on the bottom of http://www.fldoe.org/edcert for Rule Authority and following the links for "degrees programs and credits" will get you to this link https://www.flrules.org/gateway/RuleNo.asp?ID=6A-4.003.

Click on the page in the notice/adopt column it will open up this link https://www.flrules.org/gateway/readFile.asp?sid=0&tid=1053825&type=1&File=6A-4.003.doc

Which is the Florida Administrative Code 6A-4.003.doc where it states

6A-4.003 Degrees, Programs, and Credits.
Degrees, programs, and credits shall be determined acceptable for educator certification purposes based on the following:
(1) Accredited institutions. Degrees and credits awarded by an institution of higher learning accredited by one (1) of the accrediting associations listed below shall be acceptable for educator certification purposes.
(a) Regional accrediting associations. The regional accrediting associations are as follows:
1. The Southern Association of Colleges and Schools,
2. The Middle States Association of Colleges and Secondary Schools,
3. The New England Association of Colleges and Secondary Schools,
4. The North Central Association of Colleges and Secondary Schools,
5. The Northwest Association of Secondary and Higher Schools, and
6. The Western Association of Colleges and Schools.
(b) Accrediting agencies approved by the United States Department of Education.

Para b. should cover all NA schools.

Ted N

 

Fabtacular!!!! Thanks.

DEL

 

I trust you implicitly.

 

Once Ted H. was taking a course at AMU before they obtained RA status and I saw the syllabus. It was indeed a monster, the required reading list at the graduate level was just as tough as many of the local prestigious graduate programs found in this area...kudos for DETC.

However if an individual wants to use NA credentials without any limitations, I can't for the life of me figure out why people put themselves through the frustration of the world saying yes, no, yes, no, yes no? It just doesnt make good sense, knowing up front you will be facing a bias in the workaday world. I hate to say it, but until things change to a point in which RA and DETC can form an agreement, it can be a handicap for a student. Maybe the time has come in which DETC and RA needs to hammer out course structure that everyone can agree on. Instead of relying on this or that RA institution for an ad-hoc arraignment.

I can assume South Carolina's education department is like many other states in regards to NA, they wont even touch it, The first thing out of their mouths is "Is it RA?" Offically they dont care about the name of an institution and dont even ask up front, they just want RA.

To consider chasing an NA degree for knowledge and self-enrichment is one thing. But why put yourself through the ordeal if you know up front what the disparities are if you are considering entering the educational system.
Good luck,
Gavin