Is British-American School of Law back?

MD, DDS, PharmD, and other professional doctorates may not require a dissertation. There has been a number of discussions on this forum about representation of degrees. The consensus seems to be that one should be able to claim whatever is officially listed on their transcript. I think it would be hard to convince some people with JDs that they are not a "doctor" when their diploma says "Doctorate" (even if it was called a LLB many, many years ago).

As a side note, I really think people that refer to themselves using titles or feel the need to list their degrees on business cards are just looking for attention. Of course, everything has its place. A medical doctor should refer to himself as "Doctor" when practicing medicine. A management consultant may want "MBA" listed on their card. There is no reason a realtor should have psychology degree listed on their business card. I guess I am only thinking of that because I saw it last weekend

 

This is correct. A J.D. is no less a doctorate than an M.D., D.D.S. or O.D. (Optometry).

Whether it is appropriate for a lawyer to call himself a doctor is the same as a physician or surgeon calling himself a doctor. There is no profession of "doctor" and nowhere will you see "The Royal College of Doctors" or "The Association of American Doctors"...... The professional title of a doctor of medicine is physician or surgeon or both.

I see nothing wrong with a J.D. calling himself a doctor as I see nothing wrong with an M.D. calling himself a doctor.

 

How would you respond to the following common objections?

First, the term "doctor" has historically been applied to those who have achieved the highest level of study in their disciplines. For example, the Wikipedia article on "doctorates" begins with the statement: "A doctorate is an academic degree of the highest level". But the JD clearly isn't the "highest level" as far as the study of law is concerned. If the JD is the "highest level", then what is the LLM or the JSD ?

Second, most other English-speaking, common law countries don't regard the first professional law degree as a doctoral degree. If a US JD deserves the title of "doctor", then what about his Canadian or UK counterpart with an LLB ? How about an Oxford undergraduate BA in Jurisprudence, which is bar-qualifying in at least some states ?

 

I suspect that this is why the ABA does not encourage J.D.s to use the title "doctor." Pragmatically, local custom should prevail. For example, in the US, very few attorneys have "J.D." on their business cards. Most do not list any degrees on their cards. When I visited Australia, the lawyers I met with had "LL.B" on their business cards.

Some non-US medical schools issue a bachelor's degree (MB/BCh or similar) as the first professional degree for a physician and surgeon. They use the title "doctor" even though they hold bachelor's degrees. Curiously, in the UK, the custom was for specialists with advanced training to use the title "mister," after they had progressed from "doctor." I do not know if this is the case today.

Some US medical licensing boards permit their licensed foreign medical graduates to use "M.D." after their names, even if they do not have an M.D. degree.

Christopher, DC, JD
Doctor or Mister, depending on which role I'm assuming

 

BAU is dead long live BAU

I just went through the cal bar exam and the bar mistakenly asked for information from this school. I was completely mystified as I knew the school had gone away, replaced by another which went away even quicker.

I contacted the bar and BPPVE who quickly confirmed that this school is dead and gone.

Sad that some former student named Chuck who got his JD from BAU (but of course, no bar license) had put out a note that BAU was alive and well with the new link on counsel.net

Michael, esq as of tomorrow when I take my oath

Proud to not be the only student from BAU who ever passed the bar on his first attempt I think (since I never finished there)

 

BAU Search

I am an ex student from BAU when Dr. Roger Agajanian ran the school. It appears that he has resigned his license and has not paid his bar dues. In order for anyone who ever graduated from this school to get official transcripts we need to go through Dr. Agajanian. He does not return emails or phone calls. All of you who graduated and are unable to obtain transcripts please send me your info as I am going to file a possible class action suit. If you have any names of the directors of the old school that would be very useful as well.

Thanks,
N

 

My last communication with Roger Agajanian was a few years ago. I needed a transcript, and although BAU was no longer in operation, I was able to reach him at his law office, and the transcript was promptly sent. Unfortunately, I do not have any contact information beyond that posted on the CA Bar web site.

This situation illustrates what can happen when a school fools, particularly when there is little or no state oversight. The BPPVE once had a requirement that transcripts be available for at least five years. Alas, even this minimal protection is gone.

A BAU graduate who applied to sit for the CA General Bar Examination (GBX) would have had to submit a transcript. I do not know if Calbar would supply a copy on request. It might be worth asking.

Thankfully, I'm one of the fortnate few who passed the CA GBX and became an attorney. That credential carries more weight, IMO, than my degree. However, if I ever DID need an official transcript to apply for admission in another jurisdiction, or to enroll in an LL.M. program, I don't know what I would do.

Curiously, the "new" BAU web site does not mention Roger Agajanian, although many of the pages appear to be lifted from the old site. The new BAU is claimed to have been founded in June 2008. Note that the web address http://www.british-american.edu/ has the .edu extension. This extension is not currently available to unaccredited institutions. See: http://net.educause.edu/edudomain/show_faq.asp?code=EDUELIGIBILITY
Unaccredited schools that obtained an .edu address are permitted to keep it. But if the new BAU was founded in June 2008, and is clearly unaccredited, how did they obtain the .edu domain name?

Some web mavens might want to research who owns the web address.

Christopher

 

That's "folds"

Oops.

That should be "when a school folds,' not "when a school fools."

OK, Freudians. Have your laugh....

 

Well this is interesting, from www.whois.net:

Registrant:
British-American University, 8656 State Highway 180, Gulf Shores , Alabama 36542
(no connection implied, but this is just a few miles from Columbia Southern University)

Administrative Contact:
Dr. M M Elghusein
British-American University
Daniel-Gran Strasse 11/6, St. Poelten 3100 AUSTRIA
+43 664-7855538 (the phone has an answering machine in unaccented English)
[email protected]

The site was activated March 13, 1998, so this must be the original Agajanian site.

The University claims its accreditation from the dreadful World Association of Universities and Colleges.

In August 2007, Dr. M M Elghusein posted this message on a business development site called "openoffice.org"
===========================================
"From: M. M. Elghusein <[email protected]>
Hello,
I have come up with an idea which I think will bring good revenue for both
me and your open office project. I was wondering if you could call me at the following number so I can discuss with you what I have in mind: 347 410 8756 or you can provide me with your phone number and I can call you. Thank you. I look forward to hearing from you
============================================

A Google search for Dr. Elghusein discovers several links to a now-unavailable site called "Legal Service India." The site is accessible through www.archive.org, and has lots of text like the following (in many colors):
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
When I Started On My Endeavor In D-Com I Started Off By Joining These Three Amazing Affiliate Programs Merely Because They Were Free, Popular & Easy To Promote !They Provide A Good Platform For Beginners . The Amazing Thing About These Programs are That You Can Right From Day One Start earning, I Received My First Check Of $1200.In The Very First month. It Was Truly An Amazing feeling to receive That Kind Of money! With Little Or No. Effort. You Too Can Earn That Kind Of Money As A Beginner & Why Not! Since Their Is NO Risk Involved. Yet Gets You Ready For Bigger Games. These Programs Are As Follows, Sign Up All Of Them & Implement My Strategies . Trust Me it Won't Take Long Before You Make Your Own Fortune- Are you ready to take flight !!!
===============================================

Of the seven BAU faculty members for whom degree information is provided,
Dr. Infande has, among others, two PhD's from Breyer State
Dr. van Rheden has a Bachelors from the (fake, in my opinion) Sedona U, and a Doctorate from "WCMS" (perhaps the World College of Martial Science).
At least two others have a JD from British-American.

 

Hmm... curious.

 

BAU does not exist...

Hi all,

I am a former student as well. Though I did not graduate from there, the bar had erroneously assumed that I needed to get transcripts from them.

I contacted the bar and the right person to contact would be Dr. Agajanian's ex-wife in Colorado. She or her representative should be able to get your transcript if needed. The best thing to do is contact the state bar and see what you need to do.

The BAU that exists right now is a school in Alabama that is not accredited by the state of California. As far as I can tell they are not licensed to enable any student to take a bar exam in any state. Just to get bragging rights that they have a "JD".

Also, Dr Agajanian appears to no longer be associated with the school.

Cheers,

Michael Toback, Esq.

 

Hi mit1955,

Where did you end up getting your JD?

 

British American University

I went to Taft my last two years. Never regretted it.

As for "British University", it doesn't exist any more. The school in Alabama is unable to give anyone a degree that is recognized by any state to allow you to sit for the bar. I suspect it still uses Mr. Agajanian's videos that he created prior to 2000.

Michael

PS I agree with Chris. I didn't get a PhD or an MD. I'm not a doctor I'm an attorney.

 

Hi mit1955,

It will be great if you could let me know what area of law you are currently practicing. I am thinking about getting a JD from Taft as well and would like to know the utility of a DL JD.

Thanks
sshuang

 

I'm still trying to figure that out. I've done a bunch of pro bono family law work and I like it. I've also had my patent license for several years.

Because of employment changes I'll be ramping up my practice over the next few months.

I think it's difficult but not impossible to get into a firm with a DL degree, so I'm going solo for now.

Michael

 

Hi mit1955,

Thanks for your info.
Do you know anyone with DL JD specializing in accounting or tax?

Thanks
sshuang

 

No.

I would look at two things. First I would call the schools you are interested in, they can direct you to some alumni who might be doing that. Second, contact St Thomas School of Law in San Diego. It is an ABA DL LLM program and has a tax program.

I must warn you though not to fall for the scammers that will tell you you can get a POS JD from their school, then get an ABA LLM to bypass the Baby Bar and California Bar then sit for a bar in another state. To my knowledge no state will accept the LLM with a DL school.

If you want to practice make sure you are on track to sit for the california bar.

Michael

 

Interesting article

http://docs.justia.com/cases/federal/district-courts/california/cacdce/2:2007cv08258/403801/21/0.pdf

You can pretty much figure out why "Dr" Agajanian is no longer practicing. And since none of the people running BAU are licensed in the state of CA, I speculate that the bar (which now has oversight over California Law Schools) would not allow them to re-open as a california school.

My two cents,

Michael

 

BAU Dead Again

Looks like the site went down again, this time perhaps for good.

Some documents came out on the calbar site

http://members.calbar.ca.gov/search/member_detail.aspx?x=55393

At about the same time the BAU site went down in Alabama.

May have been coincidence, will have to wait for the documents to come out of this case to see.

 

1. JD = Juris DOCTOR. Basically conferring a doctorate upon the person holding a JD. There are seemingly good arguments contra this, on a prima facie basis; however, even the argument that a "doctorate" is conferred upon someone who has earned the highest level within his discipline is flawed. Yes, there are and will always be levels of accomplishment beyond that which is available now (i.e. JD, LLM, PhD, blah blah blah in the legal arena. Likewise, in the medical arena, MD no longer suffices, since a person can go beyond that title of status in claiming "board certification", which is a higher level of achievement than just the basic MD).

2. Dr. Roger Agajanian has not been associated with BAU since last year around the beginning of Spring. I cannot comment re whatever happened with BAU's administration other than I was glad to see BAU finally taking my suggestion that they move the school to AL. Unfortunately, they failed to heed the entire suggestion since they failed to establish a physical campus in AL whereby they would have brick & mortar classroom instruction offered, as well as DL courses. This would have opened a world of opportunity for DL law students. I did maintain communication with Elghusein, somewhat. And, with the prospects of a future physical campus being promoted, recommended, and strongly suggested by me throughout the past 2 years, I even accepted a contract to teach Administrative Law and ADR courses which are my specialty in practicum.

3. I graduated from BAU, adding a JD to my repertoire of multiple degrees, diplomas, certifications, and commendations that I had accomplished prior and past. Because of my contracting to teach, I agreed to having my name posted on the BAU website as "Dr.", though I prefer Capt. (being a duly licensed and commissioned US Merchant Marine Captain, and being recognized officially by the Federal, State, and Local governments as "Captain"). Besides, the problem with the use of "Dr" stereotypically refers to a physician, since they have all but confiscated that title (and most MD physicians don't even care to recognize PhD's, DDS, OD, DC, DH, etc. as "Dr."). A direction en arguendo which I have not seen taken here was that question left begging re the religious Dr. as in a DD and DRS, which I have earned in the past, as well, and the Dr. as in a MsD, which I have earned, as well. In fact, the Federal and State gov't, some Judges, elected officials, religious leaders, lawyers, professors, and even a few health care professionals, including my father (an MD) have made the reference of Dr. when speaking with or about me. Then again, I could use the term "esq." since the term "esquire" has no official meaning of status or education (although the lawyers have tried to snatch up that as an exclusive). Basically, it boils down to a very simple question of "who really cares?"

4. I am NOT a Lawyer. I am NOT an Attorney. I am also NOT a physician.

5. I do have a Federal Administrative Law practice limited to Social Security and Labor. Upon graduation from BAU, I petitioned the Social Security Office of Hearings and Appeals[OHA] (now called the Office of Disability Adjudication and Review [ODAR] and was promptly admitted by my credentials. I later found cause to petition the US Dept. of Labor OALJ (Office of Administrative Law Judges) and was promptly admitted by that Chief Judge.

6. I was a registered law student with the California Bar, but I decided I didn't feel like moving to California, nor going there twice for Bar exams, so I went the Admin Law route, instead.

7. If, in fact, BAU has ceased to exist, then may it RIP. Personally, I feel I benefitted quite a bit by becoming a BAU student. Being, however, a former recognized faculty member of several colleges and universities (some of them very well-recognized) and having taught a variety of disciplines including having held a teaching contract with BAU among the schools, I am even viewed as an emeritus professor.

So, a person with a JD calls himself Dr. If you look at the degree (Juris Doctor) it means Doctor in Law.

I'll stick with Capt. and I have even answered to "hey you" before.

Plain.
Simple.
Common Sense.

Capt. Leonardo Ortiz (USMM)