Please don't jump me guys, just sharing

I have had many correspondences with the United States Department of Education in the recent months. My main issue with the USDE was that recognized accreditation agencies such as the DETC credits are not recognized by most regionally accredited schools. It is my opinion that this is unfair because both types of accreditation agencies give their accredited schools the opportunity to participate in Title IV and other federal aid. I believe that if an accrediting agency is recognized by the USDE and CHEA, any school accredited with such agency that transfer of credits should be no problem from school to school and from region to region. In additition, I brought up points that some degrees are not recognized by other recognized accrediting agencies. Here's the response I received:

Dear Mr. Coats

Thank you for your letter to Secretary Margaret Spellings concerning accreditation and the acceptability of degrees. Since this office has the responsibility for the administration of the process for recognition of accrediting, the Secretary has asked that we respond.

Your letter raises several issues: the refusal to accept certain education credentials by some educational institutions, employers and states; the difficulties associated with transfer of education credits between institutions; and the lack of recognition by the Department of Education of state approval agencies.

Because of the decentralized control of postsecondary education, the U. S. Department of Education does not have the legal authority to regulate the acceptance of education credentials. Educational institutions and private employers exercise their own discretionary authority in this area. In addition, state governments can have the authority to legislate on these matters without intervention by the federal government.

At this time there is no statutory or regulartory authority for the federal government to intervene in the area of transfer of credit. These determinations are left to the discretion of the receiving educational institution.

Finally, the recognition of accrediting agencies by the Secretary of Education is voluntary. There is no statutory requirement that accrediting agencies be recognized. The statute that authorizes the Secretary to recognize accrediting agencies, the Higher Education Act of 1965, as amended, prohibits the Secretary from recognizing state agencies for the accreditation of degree-granting insititutions. Changing this situation would require that Congress amend the authorizing legislation.

Sincerely John Barth
Director, Accreditation and State Liason

The very nature of this would confuse anyone who did not have any inkling about the accreditation system here in the USA.

And, if a "regionally accredited" university wanted to hire a DETC grad or a grad from a State Approved school as a faculty, there are no laws or regulations against this. I am somewhat dismayed that any school accredited by any agency recognized by the USDE or CHEA having its credits denied in transfer is unfair to say the least. The agencies go through the same eligibility requirements for recognition and receive federal funds. I can see how the system is so confusing to the general public. States have the authority to approve schools to confer degrees but can't be recognized by the USDE, USDE recognized accrediting agencies accredit schools, but in a lot cases, the credits and/or degrees are not accepted within such varying agencies.

Another important factor to realize here too, any school that offers degrees would appear to be legitimate under these terms set forth by the USDE. That includes those awful diploma mills and substandard schools. The word VOLUNTARY is an innoculation for any school to operate under these conditions. Don't you all think this needs to be changed somehow?
I am not looking for a debate on this. But would like to hear some of the opinions out there - in a civil manner please -.

Robbie

 

My understanding is that US DOE recognition of these agencies is just for financing purposes. Nothing to do with educational practice.

In respect to Diploma Mills, I think they can only go as far as you recognize them. If someone has degree from unknown school, you should at least make sure they know what they are doing, don't take it at face value. On the other hand, a school with no accreditation could have sincere intention but desire not to get accreditation which is a valid legal choice.

 

Fairness in the eye of the DETC student differs from fairness in the eye of a school that is saying that they don't accept the credits. It seems perfectly reasonable to me for a school to say that credits cannot apply from other schools. I see no fair way to legislate that a school must accept credits from another school.

 

This matter bring up, once again, the need for more data on what is really going on out there.

For years, I clamored for research on the acceptance of various kinds of degrees in the marketplace: schools, companies, government.

Finally in 1999-2000, I spent about $3,000 of my own money to do a survey of collegiate registrars and admissions officers, asking, in effect, whether they accepted various degrees and kinds of degrees (DETC, RA, state approved, etc., 13 categories) "Always," "Usually" "Sometimes" "Rarely" or "Never."

As I've reported, roughly 40% accepted DETC in the first two categories and 50% in the last two.

But I did not ask about DETC degrees also evaluated by ACE -- which I think would have been higher.

Rich Douglas address some issues of corporate acceptance in his doctoral research.

But so much more research is needed. I can only hope that someone will undertake seeking the funding and doing the work.

 

Serg holds a BSIT from ITT, he had bad luck and couldn't get in to Masters program at RA universities of his choice.
He scored very high in GRE etc still no luck, they didn't view the content of his NA credits as compatible with theirs.
Serg still wanted US RA university Masters degree.

HE was accepted to University of Wales one of the campuses in to final year final semesters of BSc degree program.

The credit was transferred and special reassessment took place, NARIC UK had to provide comparability report class by class.

Months later Serg with his new BSc from UK gets ECE evaluation and accepted in to RA Graduate school of good standing with name recognition.

There are ways, it's painful but there are ways. When faced with problem try to be creative if no other choice exists. Maybe there was a better solution, I don't know but Serg is happy well ( student loan payments will come) for now.

 

Lerner,

Your comments imply that you feel that all degrees are fungible. As in there is no difference between Yale and North-Southwest (insert your state here) University.

College diplomas often contains the language "this degree is granted on the recommendation of the faculty. . .". You imply that the faculty of a university should not have the discretion to decide the standards for its degrees. This would be no different than the government requiring Outback to buy all its meat from any meat provider that is USDA inspected. The world doesn't work this way.

 

The point I am trying to make here is this. If an accrediting agency meets the eligibility requirements by the USDOE for recognition to award accreditation to a school to offer degrees, and those schools are entitled to use 'FEDERAL TAX DOLLARS' for what ever, then any school accredited by an agency recognized by the USDOE should accept both degrees and credits from those schools. For example, If I earned say 45 hours of credit from a DETC accredited school and wanted to transfer over to a RA accredited school, (grades at B or Abover), then why should I be denied the transfer of credits when the same Title IV funds paid for those credits with the DETC school? This is education and not some back parking lot or 'shifty business" propositions. Other businesses that receive federal aid have to, including hospitals, accept patients for treatment and can transfer from one hospital to another. It is not being fair in our educaitonal systems. The feds to have laws for some businesses that if they receive federal funds, then that business has to accept or treat that person(s). Are you aware there is a federal law if a person shows up at an emergency room, he or she can request for a physical, and if the physical shows abnormalities, the hospital has to admit and treat them or send them to another hospital that will. I learned that in one of my Health Care Management Courses.

I am with Dr. Bear on this one. An indepth study needs to be done. The whys, whereforths, whynots, etc. need to be answered. Read the USDOE site. You surmize that all accreditation recognized by the USDOE is equal in quality. Dr. Bear, if interested, I would consider helping you with such a study.

Robbie

Oh just to note,,,, if a certain state would not lower its speed limit on a highway or require safety belts, then the federal government would withhold federal dollars.

 

I reread my post couple of times and I don't see how you got to your conclusion.

It appears that University of Wales has a better rate of acceptance by US RA universities, to be honest many people with foreign degrees that are RA equivalent get in to RA universities to continue their education in USA.

I clearly explained that The RA Universities that Serg tried to get in to didn't accept ITT credits because of course incompatibility. It's painful to the ITT degree holder to find later after the graduation that RA universities may not accept his credits for further education. WHat I imply is that its up to ITT to inform the prospective students about the posible limitations of their degrees.

Please don't put words in my mouth that I didn't say nor I implied.

What I implied is that some UK universities accept US NA degrees and because UK system is unique there are exit points and entry points in to degrees.
3 year undergraduate degree program leading to Honors , ordinary degree or US BSc:

First year Certificate.( CHE - Cert of Higher Education, Higher National Certificate etc)
Second Year Diploma. ( Higher National Diploma, Foundation)
Third Year Ordinary degree.( Hon)

For example a person with NVQ 4 or HNC, HEC can enter second year of BS program.
A person with NVQ 5 or HND can enter third - final year of 3 year BSc program.

A person with ITT BSC Degree will be evaluated by NARIC UK as Level 5 - 6.

So they can have very advanced standing and get in to dual degree program or Graduate school. That's in UK.

There other routs one can take such as PEP Exams etc.

 

As noted in the response above from USDoE:

No kidding. In fact, state legislatures and licensing boards routinely establish laws and regulations that specify particular forms of accreditation for professional degree programs.

For example, all states require or prefer ABA-accredited law degrees for attorneys, or ABET-accredited engineering degrees for professional engineers. You can study law or engineering at schools accredited by other agencies (e.g. DETC), but the professional value of such programs is far more limited.

If state law regards (for example) DETC programs as non-qualifying for professional purposes, then it's not credible to suggest that professionally accredited programs in that state must accept DETC coursework in transfer. In fact, this could actually be illegal under state law, or at least unacceptable to state licensing boards.

 

CalDog is right on the money!

Nothing would please some of the questionable, unwonderful, unaccredited and exist-to-fleece, profiteering, ethics-challenged, dubious, internet-only degree-granting entities more than to have some dictatorial governmental edict or body mandate the forced acceptance of any and all types of "accredited" credits at and by all RA colleges and universities.

Which is not to say that all state-licensed or all unaccredited entities are shambags - but that the proof is on them to demonstrate how and why they are not, and not the other way around, for everyone else to accept them willy-nilly.

DETC is absolutely legitimate and respectable. But the choice of accepting DETC or other accredited (or unaccredited) credits, or not, belongs, properly so, to the receiving institution. So (perhaps, perpetually) shall it be.

Legitimate (and widely-recognized and accepted) accreditation has its privileges.

Can't beat 'em or force 'em? Then it may be time to do the next best thing. Join 'em.

Or not.

Carry on!

 

Thanks for being civil guys. This is just discussion - okay to agree and disagree. And no Steve, I am not taking offense. I am trying to make sense out of a chaotic educational system. So, please keep this civil. We are adults. Discussions and exchanges of ideas are great things. All of your opinions are appreciated and respected on my part. I just had a question and an opinion and wanted others input too.

Let me ask this then... say in the United Kingdom or other countries that have Education Ministries, unlike the USA with private regional educational oversight, do those countries have the same difficulties in having credits transferred from one school to another or having a degree accepted from one school to another, i.e., have a BS accepted for getting into a Masters program at a different school?

I don't like government medling in business either, but, when my tax dollars are used for federal aid for students at any school eligible, then I believe any school receiving same federal aid sources should give a fair evaluation of credits or partial credits to those students if those course credits are similar in nature to courses offered and not out right deny credits. I agree to a point that schools have the right to accept or deny any student and credit transfers. However, then the federal government should stay out of education altogether and leave aid, grants, and loans to the authority of individual States. I feel sorry for those students such as the ones at ITT and others who are denied furthering their education based solely on what agency did the accreditation. It should be based on the schools educational outcomes and student success.

Also, please let me clarify, I am not implying that a key maker or furniture refinisher (nothing against them, I love em and need em) from a DETC school get credit transfers but rather basic college courses such as english, math, biology, history, and such. I understand and accept that quarter hour systems are different from semester systems and the hours would need to be prorated. I had that happen from a regionally accredited tech school to a regionally accredited 4 year college. I received 1/2 credits for each course which was fine. The community colleges in NC have now gone to a traditional semester system and this is no longer a problem in transfer of credits. But that was not the case back in the 70s with me and others who graduated back then.

I like the saying, "It's not what happens in the Whitehouse, it's what happens in your house."

 

John Barth (who wrote that letter) is gone!

Intriguingly (and mysteriously), John Barth, who wrote the long letter Robbie quoted, seems to have just been either fired, or forced out of his job. Here's the long story in today's "Inside Higher Education"
(http://insidehighered.com:80/news/2007/01/29/barth)

It begins:

The Education Department’s top staff official on accreditation has abruptly left his job, at a time when the department’s political leaders are engaged in an aggressive campaign to ramp up the government’s oversight of accrediting agencies.

Exactly what led to the transfer of John W. Barth, director of accreditation and state liaison, to a position in the Federal Student Aid Ombudsman’s office remains hazy. The department’s official stance, through a spokeswoman, was only this terse statement: “John Barth has accepted a new position at FSA.” Another department official framed Barth’s decision as routine and his choice, but the available evidence overwhelmingly suggests otherwise.

 

Excellent article, thank you so much for the link.

 

School reputation is not black and white. It is a wide spectrum of differing shades of gray. My opinion is that RA schools are on the top level above DETC accredited schools. I assume that there is probably some overlap where some DETC schools or programs are higher reputation-wise than some RA schools or programs but, generally RA will have a better reputation than DETC. The unaccredited schools are much lower on this scale with little overlap with any accredited schools.

Also, reputation is opinion and has a large subjective component that will differ from individual to individual.

Reputation is very important in academia and accepting credits from other schools is one way for schools to try and protect their reputation.