Is JD a doctorate level?

Re: Re: Re: Re: J.D./M.D. vs Ph.D.

This is a "contractor vs employee" situation. I don't know what kind of arrangement you have with the Ph.D. But normally, the hourly rate for a contractor is much more than an employee.

This is exactly the point. In the eyes of academic Ph.D. professional, J.D. is simply not equivalent to Ph.D.

 

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: J.D./M.D. vs Ph.D.

Prior to the above statement I could at least appreciate your arguments even though I may have disagreed with them, but now you simply sound ignorant.

Listen to yourself: A JD is qualified to teach a course, but unqualified to be hired to teach the same course.
Maybe in some theoretical b&m PhD program this type of reasoning my fly, but this type of logic would get you booted out of law school.

 

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: J.D./M.D. vs Ph.D.

Wrong!!! The rates paid to the adjuncts were at 2 different pay scales depending on the academic qualifications of the applicant:

Adjuncts with Master degrees were paid X, adjuncts with PhD and apparently JD's were paid Y. Accordingly, the "contractor vs employee" argument to defend this inconsistency does not hold water. Clearly, the hiring disparity has far more to do with the PhD's self perception of superiority which has no basis in objective fact.

 

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: J.D./M.D. vs Ph.D.

I'm guessing you've probably misunderstood the situation under which you've been teaching. I realize this can seem frustrating. Getting hired for a full time position (i.e., as an assistant professor on a tenure track) is very different from teaching a few classes on a part time basis (i.e., adjunct). Without a doctorate that qualifies you to teach, you are uniquely qualified to teach business law but not much more than that. At least, anyone with an MBA is just as qualified as you are to teach in a business program. In an undergraduate criminal justice program, a holder of a masters degree in criminal justice may be just as qualified to hold a full time position as you are.

Dave

 

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: J.D./M.D. vs Ph.D.

No, ask anyone at the university. You're not doctorally qualified to teach.

Dave

 

Regarding teaching full time on a tenure track, if my recollection serves me correctly, the PhD is only qualified to teach subjects upon which he has already completed 18 graduate level credits, all of which must be in related courses to the subject matter he intends to teach. If this is true, doesn't the Ph.D. have similar limitations on his qualifications to teach in subject he has not completed 18 credits of graduate study in; just as a JD would have limitations on his qualifications to teach subjects he has not been sufficiently trained in?

 

You could be right. Business law or criminal justice? Which state?

By the way, in approaching schools you'll want to compare your teaching qualifications to your competition, which are masters degree holders.

Dave

 

Under this scenario, you are correct. However, a professorship at universities that require a Doctorate as a minimum qualification is not just simply teaching. Conducting research that is part of the job description. Research is not part of an adjunct's job description. This does not mean that they do not perform research. It just means that they do not do it as part of their job for that particular college or university. Also, at the university I am at right now (as a student, not an instructor) there is a community service requirement. Again, this is not part of the adjunct's job description. They are hired to teach, and that is it.

 

I see you also have an MPA, which would provide quite a bit of teaching overlap with management courses in a business school.

By the way, have you looked into any DL doctoral programs? There are many choices these days if you envision a move toward full time teaching.

Dave

 

This has been a good discussion, but we should get back to the original question. It is NOT "Does a JD=PhD?" per se. It is "Does a JD=Doctorate?"

This latter question (the original one) would include the EdD, DBA, etc.


SO, in your opinion, does it???

 

Hi Dave,

Are you saying that a person with DL doctoral degree can actually land a full time teaching job, e.g., tenure professorship?

 

Yes, I know of at least one Touro Ph.D. who landed a full time teaching job on the tenure track as an assistant professor at a large state institution. I'm trying to remember others who weren't already doing the Touro Ph.D. at the request of their departments. Oh, two others from Touro I know of where snapped up by for-profit schools. I have many friends in part-time Ph.D. programs, such as NCU and Capella, who are already teaching at for-profit schools. One good friend had to redo his Nova doctorate to reach tenure; still, its hard to find anybody around more qualified to teach and research!

I realize that some have tried to make a distinction between "online/limited residency" and "traditional" Ph.D. programs but the only really interesting difference is part-time versus full-time programs (mostly AACSB); full-time programs typically want much younger students than the part-time or online programs.

Dave

 

It took a while, but I think a collective consensus may have been reached?

It appears that there may be some logical and coherent consensus upon which we can agree. The Ph.D. and JD are not equal degrees because they are two distance areas of expertise. One focuses upon research and theory, the Ph.D.; while the other focuses upon practice and application, the JD. That being said, both degrees are recognized by colleges and universities as equally “qualified” to teach at the college level within their respective areas of expertise. This would explain the comparable pay for JD's and PhD's at the adjunct level. However, the PhD is more likely to be hired full time by a college or university on a tenured track, not because the Ph.D. is more competent to teach at the college level, but rather because of the research focus of the PhD. This of course assumes the college or university is desirous of a research component within its full time tenured track professors, which is a more than reasonable assumption. Then it logically follows that the PhD would be more suited to the university's needs and thus more qualified to be picked up as a full time tenured track professor.

However, the original question was "Is the JD a doctorate level?” clearly it is, but it is not a PhD, because the PhD is focused upon research and the JD is focused upon practice.

 

I am not sure if a DL doctoral program will help or hurt my chances of teaching at the college level. I would hate to invest the time or money to earn a DL doctoral to be told it was not sufficient to teach full time at the college level.

 

Re: It took a while, but I think a collective consensus may have been reached?

In my opinion, the following posts by jdlaw93 and tmartca completely and accurately summarize the entire issue:

 

It sounds like earning a doctorate would be helpful in your case though, so you could investigate a few doctoral programs and then ask about those programs at the schools at wish you would like to teach.

Dave

 

Is the JD a doctorate? It seems that there are a few questions going on here. First, is the JD a doctoral title? Yes, the JD accumulates 90 semester hours (135 quarter hours) of post-baccalaureate coursework while the PhD accumulates a total of 90 semester hours (135 quarter hours) of post-baccalaureate work, usually divided up as 30 semester hours (45 quarter hours) toward the master's degree, 30 semester hours (45 quarter hours) of doctoral coursework, and 30 semester hours (45 quarter hours) toward the doctoral dissertation. Both hold the doctoral title and both are legitimate doctorates; the distinction is that the JD is a professional doctorate and the PhD is a research doctorate. Second, may a practicing lawyer with a JD refer to himself/herself as "Doctor"? As noted, up until the 1960s, the first law degree in the US was the LlB, a second bachelor's earned after the BA or BS. Sometime in the late 1960s, the first law degree was upgraded in title to the JD. This produced a situation where the young lawyers had the doctoral title of JD for essentially the same work as the older lawyers with the mere second bachelor's title of LlB. Hence, the ABA Code of Ethics concocted rules that a lawyer with a JD could not call himself "Doctor." Apparently, there are still a few old LlB's running around. It will be interesting to see if this rule changes when the old LlB's retire. Third, will a JD be treated as a doctor for purposes of academic pay-scale? Apparently, it depends.

 

Re: Re: Is JD a doctorate level?

Good points, Ted. However, if there is no dissertation produced then it is not a doctorate in the context of establishing a professorship in higher education (i.e., full time teaching). The qualifying labels "research" and "professional" seem superfluous in the context of college teaching. There is no dissertation or research direction in the JD, which arises from a process that is variable in length, scope and content. Hence, the absence of the doctoral process hinders it from being, in fact, a doctorate. Where's the original research product or contribution to theory? That's the missing element to support legitimacy. Without legitmate doctorates within the context of higher education, holders of "professional" doctorates should be paid as masters degree holders.

Even though the ABA proclaims by fiat that the JD is equivalent to the PhD, it is obviously not. If the ABA really believes that how one is trained for a profession doesn't matter, then they could prove their point by agreeing to allow PhDs in any discipline sit for the bar exam. That would be the intellectually honest thing to do.

Dave

 

I sleep with a former PhD candidate, been married to her for 17 years. Pure Theoretical Math PhD candidate, major university, top 40 program. Finished the MS, passed her orals, finished all PhD coursework but for a couple classes, was begged to stay in the program by her advisor, but left to go into industry (tired of being treated like a serf).

And having had that experience, having seen it from the inside, I can say, unequivocally, that but for the actual dissertation work, IT IS PART-TIME. THE COURSEWORK IS A COMPLETE JOKE! THEY DO NOT DO AS MUCH WORK AS THE AVERAGE LAW STUDENT. YOU ARE WRONG.

Thank you,

LF

 

Sorry to hear that she left the program and that is interesting information, but that's a sample size of one case from a convenience sample, which probably is not the best way to explore your research question.

Dave