BA in 4 Weeks. NOT recognized in Italy !

Discussion in 'General Distance Learning Discussions' started by Ulrich Bozzo, Mar 22, 2001.

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  1. Lawrie Miller

    Lawrie Miller New Member

    REQUEST FOR CLARIFICATION ON THE ISSUE OF ACCEPTANCE OR OTHERWISE IN ITALIAN INSTITUTIONS, OF U.S. REGIONALLY ACCREDITED DEGREES EARNED BY EXAMINATION.

    I've sent this letter to Silvia Capucci at CIMEA-FONDAZIONE RUI, email [email protected]

    ..................................................

    ACCEPTANCE AND RECOGNITION OF U.S. DISTANCE LEARNING DEGREES IN ITALY

    Dear Ms. Capucci,

    This inquiry is necessarily written in English since, regretfully, I speak no Italian.

    Questions have been raised in the Distance Learning internet resource forum, degreeinfo.com, about the acceptance in Italy of U.S. regionally accredited degrees earned traditionally, and U.S. regionally accredited
    degrees earned via distance learning. Any information you could supply would be of benefit to at least some of the many thousands of visitors to degreeinfo.com each day. There are five categories of degree in question. Traditional degrees are included as a "control" for reference purposes.

    For the purposes of this inquiry, "authorized institution" refers to a U.S. regionally accredited institution of higher learning (college or university).

    Which, if any, of the following degrees, conferred by a U.S. regionally accredited institution, if presented by an applicant, would be acceptable for the purposes of admission into graduate programs in Italian institutions of higher learning (universities, institutes)?

    1)
    A bachelor's degree (BA or BS) earned traditionally?
    (attending classes/lectures at a physical institution)

    2)
    A bachelor's degree (BA or BS) earned via distance learning classes?
    (Either via the internet, using video taped lectures, or via correspondence courses)

    3)
    A bachelor's degree (BA or BS) earned via examination?
    (A combination of CLEP, DANTES, RCE, GRE subject examinations, where credit has been awarded for a suitable performance in such examinations, by an authorized institution)

    4)
    A bachelor's degree (BA or BS) earned via portfolio assessment
    (where prior work is assessed as equivalent to specific college courses and where credit has been duly awarded by an authorized institution)

    5)
    A bachelor's degree earned by a combination of two or more of the methods detailed above?


    I thank you for your time and effort. The information you provide will likely benefit many U.S. distance learning graduates who have expressed a desire to study at graduate level in Italy.

    Sincerely,

    Lawrie Miller
     
  2. Lawrie Miller

    Lawrie Miller New Member

    Because they were there. [​IMG]

    And because I knew that years later I'd be able to contrast and compare the exams and offer helpful advice to aspiring students on which one to write. [​IMG]

    And because I didn't notice Regents College changing the rules in September 1997 so that the CLEP exam would no longer be acceptable. That left me up shit creek without a paddle and without an alternative but to sit the RCE English Composition exam sometime later after enrollment.

    One lousy mistake. I should've gone to COSC.
     
  3. Ulrich Bozzo

    Ulrich Bozzo New Member


    My father and mother are Italian. And try to guess, Mr Miller. I am Italian. And educated, I believe.


    It seems that you are not able to understand. In order to recognize a foreign (non EU) degree they will look through your curriculum. They will not consider your RA degree as a whole. They DO NOT accept tests. And you earned your degree entirely through standardized tests. HOW CAN THEY ACCEPT YOUR DEGREE, Mr MILLER ?


    Now, I must apologize to Mrs Capucci. I made a big mistake, I published a private email. I did not pay attention to Dr Bear's warnings. And of course, Mr Miller did not write to CIMEA-FONDAZIONE RUI([email protected]). No, Mr Miller wrote to Mrs Capucci to let her know that I am a person who publishes private emails, poorly worded, that I am an asshole.

    It is my intention to send Mrs Capucci an apologetic email.

    Ulrich Bozzo
     
  4. Lawrie Miller

    Lawrie Miller New Member

    Excellent points as usual dennis and yet another valuable site reference.

    Business degree in 4 Weeks coming quite soon. first two years essentially as BA in 4 weeks with credit requirements for ethics and organizational behavior, which were included last time anyway.

    Final two years are obviously where things differ, but many of these exams too, were covered in BA in 4 weeks. It's a simpler structure than the BA. People might have difficulty with the economics and accounting exams, possibly Business Law II. Finance is not too easy, but overall, including those exams just listed, you can get through it fairly well. I knew nothing of accounting and really disliked it as a subject. If I can do well in it, anyone can.

    Only real hurdle in this degree may be Business Policy and Strategy. I bought a book for the exam and lifted it for a read only five days before the test. Found it was useless for the material being examined. Too late to get anything from Amazon.com. Found a book in Borders but I was too cheap to fork out the $75. Spent another day looking for something less expensive. With only three days left, I had to buy the damn thing. Nearly killed me. Best investment I made, though three days not long enough to really inculcate the whole ball of wax.

    Recommend you treat this exam with respect. I didn't do that. Also recommend you buy the book I have. Got me through in three days. This is the capstone exams, so it's important.

    Anyway, we'll cover it in depth in the series Business degree in 4 weeks.
     
  5. Lawrie Miller

    Lawrie Miller New Member

    Ulrich, you really are a pain in the neck. You had plenty of opportunity to provide an educated translation of the text, why did you not do so? Your interest in this issue all along seems to have been to demonstrate how inferior a BA by examination must be, how it would not be accepted hither and yonder, and how badly you've been treated by me.

    Now I am not going to discuss it with you further since (we are both agreed) you are indeed, an asshole.
     
  6. BillDayson

    BillDayson New Member

    I don't know you, Bruce. Perhaps you already did have knowledge equivalent to ten university courses. If the examinations really do measure one's knowledge and skill to the same level required by an equivalent on-campus class, then you deserve the credit.

    Probably many alert and thoughtful lay-people do carry around information equivalent to an introductory class in a number of university subjects. And these kind of tests may be a valid way of addressing some general education requirements.

    But I don't think that most people possess the specialist knowledge in a particular discipline necessary to earn a bachelors degree without significant study. Obviously a few do. The kind of buffs that frequent Civil War reinactments probably know more about Civil War battles than do most historians. But of course they have spent years gaining that knowledge.

    But as I've said before, I can't imagine a person coming in off the street and testing out of a degree in mathematics or the sciences. Does anyone really think that the next person in the supermarket isle has an intuitive university-level understanding of differential equations or higher algebra without any need for additional study? (Just ask them what a ring is.) Could such a person expound on the structure of eukaryotic cell membranes or silicate petrogenesis?

    I don't think that the situation is much better in the humanities. How in the world would it be possible to test out of a class on Plato without ...uh... reading some Plato first? Let alone thinking deeply about it and reading some scholarly commentaries? That's not something you can blow off in a few hours before the test.

    Nor is learning to play a musical instrument or becoming conversant with late Renaissance English literature.

    I have the greatest respect for people that are self-educated. There are many of them out there, and I think that a credible credit-by-examination system is wonderful for them.

    But I think that it is unrealistic to think that a person that does not already have that kind of pre-existing knowledge can obtain it quickly and easily simply by skimming a survey text. And I think that it is even less credible to think that the average person can earn an entire university degree without significant effort or study.

    That sounds dangerously close to granting degree-mill-style degrees for "life experience", in my opinion.
     
  7. Ulrich Bozzo

    Ulrich Bozzo New Member

    Effective Italian legislation in matters of studies-recognition does not provide for the recognition of tests, neither those detailed, nor any other type. Should you decide to move to Italy, you will have to start your studies again.

    Yours truly.

    Is it enough clear, Mr Miller ?

    Ambiguous ? OF COURSE, Mr Miller.
    To dream is not forbidden.

    You are an idiot, who cannot accept evidence.

    Best regards.

    Ulrich
     
  8. Tom Head

    Tom Head New Member

    I have nothing against granting credit for life experience if it can be documented; Steve earned 98 hours of his bachelor's this way, and I endorse that approach (even though, personally, I prefer examinations).

    Let me turn this question on its head for a moment:

    - True or false: The agencies responsible for CLEP, DANTES, and so forth design their examinations based on what someone would learn in an equivalent traditional course.

    - True or false: Any culturally literate person over 30 very probably knows most or all of the material covered in any freshman or sophomore level foundation course.

    - True or false: It is therefore fair to award credit to these people if -- and only if -- they can somehow document that they know all of the material covered in such a course.

    - True or false: The best way to quickly find out if a person knows a given field is by having said person take an examination.

    - If the answers are "true," "true," "true," and "true," what's the problem?


    Peace,

    ------------------
    Tom Head
    www.tomhead.net
     
  9. hworth

    hworth Member

    About 5 years ago, while teaching an undergraduate class in Human Development, I was asked to participate in the norming of a DANTES exam. I gave my class the DANTES exam as their comprehensive final for the course. With no names attached, I reported the results of the students and their grade up until that point in the class (based on the midterm, research paper, attendance, etc.)

    While I thought the exam did an adequate job of covering the content of the course, I did not think that the exam accurately reflected the student's ability to apply or think critically about the material. For example, a student, who bombed the essay section of the midterm and whose paper was barely passing, did great on the DANTES because it was only based on memorization, and this student was a great memorizer. That being said, I do know that there are many undergraduate classes that do not require application or critical thinking.

    Hworth
     
  10. Lawrie Miller

    Lawrie Miller New Member

    The "memorization" argument is often used. My view, based on practical experience of writing many of these exams would caution against it. While *some* questions *may* rely exclusively on memorization, and *all* questions require *some* degree of recall, *most* questions do require a measure of analysis and synthesis, if the correct answer is to be chosen.

    I have always had to rely on understanding the subject to complete these exams because of poor specific memory (I remember the general thrust but forget the detail). Were these exams simply a matter of regurgitating the subject material, I'd have passed very few indeed. As it is, I passed all I sat.
     
  11. Lawrie Miller

    Lawrie Miller New Member


    An average, intelligent, motivated, mature adult can indeed, earn a degree, and it will require some effort. Your original contention, as I remember it, was that such a degree could not be earned without huge effort, if at all.

    No one has suggested that *most* or "average" people with *no* knowledge of a subject can obtain it quickly by skimming a survey text. Most intelligent, motivated, mature adults do have some knowledge of the subjects under discussion. There are no or at least few "blank sheets" out there. It is absolutely possible for *some* people with little knowledge of a subject to pick up the requisite skills very quickly indeed. They're bright, quick witted individuals.

    Peter Gleaser from Germany sat the GRE Political Science exam at 20. He beat the majority of candidates in that exams - worldwide. He did so without study. He was able to do it, I think, because he is smart, naturally inquisitive, energetic, has an interest in politics, and a consuming need to "know". He went through the sample tests and thought, "I can do this". So he wrote the exam. Perhaps the moral is: those who can do, those who can't, pontificate.

    Peter also bested most candidates in the GRE mathematics exam. He revised the night before, as I remember it, and that was it. He was able to do so for the reasons given above and because he has been formally schooled in the subject.

    Prior to doing my USNY/Regents degrees, my formal higher study had been pretty well exclusively in the areas of mathematics, statistics and computing. Even down to the equivalent high school level, I had specialized in math and physics. I did a Liberal Arts degree in Political Science, precisely because, for me, it was "unknown" academic territory and a challenge.

    All of my "existing knowledge" in Lib Arts subjects came from long-ago basic schooling or adult, informal general interest. When sitting the CLEP General Humanities exam, there were a couple of questions (maybe more) on Greek mythology and Homer, I was able to answer because, one Scottish winter, at age 18, while recovering from a sports injury, I'd read both the Iliad and the Odyssey, and was able to recall and apply the requisite information in a proficiency exam, decades later, 5500 miles from home. Who'd 've thunk it.

    I was able to successfully complete most exams because I had a core knowledge base, built up over the course of a lifetime. Often I was not too aware that I knew what I did know, until challenged by a mock examination. This may well be the experience of most mature, motivated adults. I doubt that nature has endowed me with talents not given to others in abundance.
     
  12. JMcAulay

    JMcAulay New Member

    Bill, I agree completely. It would be really tough for the *average* person (one with an IQ of 100). But it has been claimed, and I won't disagree, that the average Bachelor's graduate has an IQ of 120; hence, it would seem that the average person would have more than usual difficulty in getting a Bachelor's degree by *any* means. (I know of one person with an IQ of 72 who worked very long and hard to earn a Bachelor's in a traditional setting.)

    But how about doing a BA or BS by (or predominantly by) examination? I don't know the mean IQ for such graduates, and I suspect no study of that has ever been done. But I'll bet you are right. The *average* person (IQ 100) would have a heck of a time doing it without "significant effort or study" for those exams. On the other hand, someone with IQ two or three sigma above 100 would maybe find it to be pretty much a snap. The major significance of higher IQ is that such an individual learns faster, and thus does not require such long and hard study to capture facts, concepts, and -- yes -- *applications* in his or her mind.

    I'd bet lots of money that Lawrie Miller fits into that category.

    Regards,
    John
    BA, USNY, Jan. 1993 (115 credits by examination)
    Enrolled Sept. 1992 with 6 transfer credits
     
  13. Mark_R

    Mark_R New Member

    John... bravo! Furthermore, I doubt one needs a numerical rating to assess other's ability to 'do' a DL degree. Inquisitive minds are likely candidates; those that prefer to let others do their thinking and reach their conclusions (for them) are not.

    One topic not touched in this -- and related -- thread(s) is the boundry issue, or in layman's terms, the 'not invented here' syndrome. Global recognition of degrees, like global recognition (and reciprocation) of anything, is -- at this point in time -- going to be problematic and subject to discriminatory and nationalistic issues which might well never be resolved. U.S. residents interested in remaining in the U.S. over the course of their career or lifetime need not concern themselves with this issue. 'Foreign' residents wishing to utilize U.S. DL institutions should, of course, give this topic great consideration. Given that, while a worthwhile topic, methinks the whole issue is a bit overbroiled and has devolved into a 'mine is bigger than yours' issue.

    Of course, size doesn't matter... or does it? ;-)
     
  14. BillDayson

    BillDayson New Member

    The issue of IQ is your issue, not mine. I never mentioned it, and I think that it is of doubtful relevance to the point that I am making.

    When I say "average person", I mean 'average' in terms of previous exposure to an academic subject. I am asserting that only a small proportion of the general public, no matter what their IQ, already have a pre-existing knowledge and skill set that closely approximates that of a university graduate in a particular major. Probably a great many have knowledge approximating particular courses. But in those cases, they have had previous exposure to the subject somewhere in their lives, either at work or in independent (if informal) study.

    I think that's ridiculous. No matter how smart somebody is, he or she is going to have to learn calculus or organic chemistry before passing credible exams in those subjects. He or she will have to take the time to read and then think about Plato, before testing out of a class in Plato.

    Cal Tech is filled with students with astronomical IQ's, and they *work hard*. Nobody gives them degrees just for being there.

    Bottom line: I think that credit by examination is great, but that it shouldn't be oversold.

    In particular, if a person has no previous exposure to a subject, he or she shouldn't expect to pass that subject without devoting some study to it. Exams that make that possible are not credible, in my opinion.

    Frankly, I'm more than a little amazed by this thread. I knew that I might be stepping on a few toes. But I assumed that people with a lot of examination credit would simply point out that they had read voraciously in their subject for years before taking the exams, and had reviewed carefully beforehand.

    Instead the response has been very different and very surprising.
     
  15. Dan Snelson

    Dan Snelson New Member

    Ulrich,

    Will Italy accept an MBA from Heriot-Watt?

    Totally exam driven both distance and brick and mortar EVERBODY takes the same exam.

    I suspect BOTH Lawrie and Ulrich are correct. The COMPLETED degree will be accepted and transfer credits will not.

    Well, OK that leans more toward Lawrie than Ulrich [​IMG]
     
  16. Gerstl

    Gerstl New Member


    Well this comes down to the incredible variability in US degrees. Take someone with a 130 or so IQ and put them in Cal Tech/MIT/CMU/Chicago/Yale etc and they are going to have to work hard to get their degree. Put them in a lesser state University, and they will study in the elevator on the way to their tests. I suspect that these degrees are more the latter than the former.

    Additionally I don't have a problems with Lawrie getting in the 90+ percentile on the subject GREs (I've done 2 subject GREs and they aren't that hard). For a subject like psychology, many of the people taking it are not pyschology majors,just people trying to get into grad school in psych. Additionally of those whio majored in Psychology many went to poor schools.

    I still find it a bit troubling that a 70 - 300 question multiple choice test can get you 30 credits for getting 80th percentile or above. I especially find it troubling in fields like computer science or biology (whether or not you get the degree in CS) since the student might have demonstrated knowledge, but the 30 credit equivalence is really including a bunch of lab credits that the student might never have done.
     
  17. Lawrie Miller

    Lawrie Miller New Member


    Frankly, and with all respect Bill, as the planets follows in orbit around the Sun, it does appear that you fully expect facts to follow your assumptions. When they do not, well then, the "facts" must be wrong, and those miscreants promulgating such heresy must be cads, liars, and quite possibly buffoons.

    You seem blissfully self assured that your pontifications are of necessity intrinsically valid. Conceive it possible that you may be mistaken.
     
  18. Tom Head

    Tom Head New Member

    This is true -- but in Lawrie's "B.A. in 4 Weeks" proposal, I don't see any exams on calculus or organic chemistry.

    (...and, to a disproportionate extent, European or Asian ancestry...)

    Contrast with your nearest state-funded residential adult learning program, which is probably not on the level of Cal Tech.

    I think you and Lawrie Miller have a long-running personal dispute that transcends any particular topic or issue. You two just like to argue with each other. There's nothing wrong with that, but it isn't anywhere near as dramatic as you both make it sound.

    Nobody could pass any of Lawrie's proposed examinations with no previous exposure to the topic; Lawrie's assumption is that most adults have sufficient previous exposure to said topics and can pass the exams based on their real world experience, not that they can B.S. their way through subjects they know nothing about.

    This was certainly the case with me, but I was 15-17 at the time and all. I'd hate to think that if I waited 14 years to earn my degree, watching A&E documentaries a few nights a week, it would all amount to nothing. Or to put it another way: I think Lawrie's point is that there's more than one way to get educated.

    Could anybody off the street get a B.A. in 4 weeks? No. Obviously a 20-year-old unintentional Keanu Reeves impersonator ("Duuude!") who spends his nights preparing for E!'s "Wild on East St. Olaf" is going to have more trouble with this approach than 70-year-old Humpert D. Mellitrovich, who works in a library reference section and spends 6 hours every night watching the History Channel. But anyone who's cheerfully prepared to *attempt* to work his or her toches off taking dozens of exams in a single month almost certainly falls closer to category #2 anyway, wouldn't you say?


    Peace,

    ------------------
    Tom Head
    www.tomhead.net
     
  19. Lawrie Miller

    Lawrie Miller New Member

    ERRATA

    Some mistakes in numbers I made as it relates to GRE subject examinations. Somewhere in this thread I gave a figure of 55,000 examinees for my GRE Psychology diet. This was from memory and is incorrect. The 55,000 was the number of GRE Psych test takers Oct 1990 - Sept 1993 used in the compilation of the ETS GRE Psychology scoring table. The nearest number I have that relates to my diet, is 38,000 (well 37,943) for the GRE Psychology exam for the period Oct 1996 - Sept 1999. This datum and other interesting related data are in the GRE "Interpreting Your Scores 2000 - 2001", available from ETS.

    Also, according to the same GRE document, percentile scores are for specific diets of the GRE subject exams. However (they say), the scaled scores are comparable across exam diets for the same subject. That is, a scaled score of 500 in the GRE Physics exam 1992 is at the same level of performance as a score of 500 in the GRE Physics exam in the year 2000. Although diet to diet percentile scores do vary for the same scaled score, it doesn't seem to be by that much. For instance, if I base my Psychology percentile score on the score table for 1990 - 1993, the scaled score 690 yields 94th percentile, rather than 92nd percentile. Conversely, if percentile score is calculated based on candidate performances for the total period 1996 - 1999, it drops to 91st percentile.

    Does any of this matter? I dunno.
     
  20. Tom Head

    Tom Head New Member

    Hmmmm... If I were to make a guess as to why this is happening, I'd say it's because fewer master's programs in psychology require a subject GRE for admission (relative to 7-8 years ago). Because most folks taking the GRE are taking a long view and preparing for Ph.D. or Psy.D. work, they're more likely to be focused on their field and learning by immersion -- which would be reflected in the slightly higher GRE scores, assuming I'm reading everything right. But in terms of exam-based credit, I'm not sure this would hurt folks too much. (Of course we're always at a slight disadvantage relative to the average new graduate student in psychology, since we didn't just finish a major in the field, but...)

    A non sequitur worth mentioning here: my mother passed the GRE exams in education, psychology, and sociology with virtually no preparation to get her B.S. from Regents. Q: How did she learn this material so well? A: She homeschooled three kids. This ties into what I was saying to Bill about preparation vs. experiential learning; I'm sure my high grade on the literature GRE had something to do with the fact that I had prepared for the test, but it had more to do with the fact that I spent my free time during my childhood and teen years reading books rather than watching television. In the immortal words of David Crosby, there are a thousand roads up this mountain.


    Peace,

    ------------------
    Tom Head
    www.tomhead.net
     

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