BA in 4 Weeks. NOT recognized in Italy !

Lawrie Miller wrote : " This series is primarily written to benefit mature adults who, for whatever reason, failed to start or failed to complete an undergraduate BA or BS degree, and who now seek some method of demonstrating and translating current competencies into academic credit and thence into an accredited, and universally recognized college degree.

Someone asked : " Are the degrees earned by examination internationally accepted ? "

I answered : " If accepted means recognized (lawfull, academic or professional recognition) by an authority, Germany is not a special case.
These degrees are unlikely to be accepted in some other European countries "

Lawrie Miller wrote : " Your beliefs and assertions may prove valid, Ulrich, but so far you have provided no evidence of any kind. When asked to provide proof of your authoritative and certain posture, you didn't, or perhaps couldn't "

I was irritated.
That's why I answered : " I am busy. The conversation is closed. "

L.Miller : " But apparently you were not too busy to make the unsubstantiated claims in the first place "

unsubstantiated ?

Would the degree being earned by way of standardized examination be a problem in Italy ?

If you don't need the academic, the official or the professional recognition, a degree like that may not be a problem.


Would the degree being earned by way of standardized examination be recognized in Italy ?


Degrees earned by examination are not recognized in Italy. Neither are they in Switzerland, " this obscure little country in a peripheral and mountainous area ".


Here is the answer of the CIMEA-FONDAZIONE RUI, member of The European Network of Information Centers and of The Network of National Academic Recognition Information.
You know Lawrie, the useless addresses I mentioned.
If you want to have a degree from a foreign university evaluated , it's THE address in Italy.

Received: from <[email protected]>

Tests (CLEP,DANTES,RCE,GRE)

CIMEA/D - 22.03.01

La legislazione italiana vigente in materia di riconoscimento-studi non prevede il riconoscimento di tests, nè quelli da Lei indicati, nè di altro tipo. Se decide di trasferirsi in Italia,
dovrà ricominciare gli studi universitari ex novo. Con i migliori saluti.

Silvia Capucci

In answer to

Delivered-to: [email protected]
Delivered-through: [email protected]

Da qualche tempo ho iniziato un curriculum in gestione aziendale del Excelsior College. Voglio conseguire il Bachelor of Arts in General Business. Questo college si trova ad Albany (NY) ed ha una accreditazione regionale dalla Middle States Association of Colleges and Schools.
Excelsior non è un college tradizionale. Non offre corsi. E una specie di banca di crediti universitari.
Non seguo corsi in presenza o a distanza. Sto unicamente accumulando crediti partecipando a test come CLEP, DANTES, RCE e GRE.
CLEP Examinations :
Introductory Psychology
Information Systems and Computer App.
Macroeconomics Principles of Management
Principles of Marketing Microeconomics
Natural Science
Principles of Accounting
DANTES Examinations
Management Information Systems
Principles of Finance
Contemporary Western Europe
Principles of Financial Accounting
RCE Examinations
Organizational Behavior
Human Resource Management
GRE Subject Examinations
Psychology
La mia domanda è semplice : verrebbero riconosciuto i mei studi, i miei crediti academici, il mio Bachelor in Italia ?

Ulrich Bozzo

 

Ulrich: My Italian is a little rusty, but it sounds as though the post is simply stating that such examinations may not be used to fulfill degree requirements at Italian universities; from my reading, this doesn't really say whether or not a U.S. degree already earned by these methods would or wouldn't be accepted. Correct me if I'm wrong.

(John Bear, who can actually read Italian, might be able to clarify matters here. )


Peace,

------------------
Tom Head
www.tomhead.net

 

Hey, Br. Tom!

Greetings!

Based on my understanding of Italian (by way of my knowledge of Spanish), the E-mail states that this type of degree is not recognized in Italy. Concordingly, if one wants to register for Graduate School in Italy, one needs to start from scratch.

On a related note, I have the following question for Mr. Bozzo. What about if a degree from Excelsior is earned entirely by independent study classes (correspondence courses), with no examinations, portfolio assesment, et. al.? Will this degree from Excelsior be then recognized in the countries you are talking about?

I would be naive not to mention that this has little effect for US students who want to stay and study here in the US. For them, a degree earned entirely by examination or by other non-traditional means usually don't encounter recognition obstacles inasmuch as they are regionally accredited. Of course, John Bear and Rich Douglas mention some segments who are still hesitant to recognize these degrees. Although they are representative of not an insignificant number, we shouldn't be totally surprised for this. There are people who favor the status quo and don't like change.

I hope this helps.

Yours cordially,


Br. Alberto "El Caballero" Lacaye

 

Thank you, sir -- I stand corrected!

Does the email say whether these restrictions would apply to the University of London External Programme degrees, or Heriot-Watt's examination-based B.A.?


Peace,

------------------
Tom Head
www.tomhead.net

 

I used CLEP & DANTES quite extensively in my undergraduate program. I guess I can forget about applying to all those prestigious Italian graduate schools that I've had my eye on.....

Bruce

 

Hi, Gentleman Head!

I really don't know the answer to your questions, but they are very interesting, indeed. Before I give you my opinion, let me tell you that the E-mail doesn't address these issues.

I would believe that the way credits are entered on a transcript might represent some difference. For instance, if HW and UL credits are entered as "credit by examination", that could be not advantageous. Conversely, if the credits are entered as regular credits, it shouldn't make any difference. For example, while I was attending my last college, I took some classes as independent studies (just showed up for exams), but the credits were entered as regular credits. Again, Tom, I am just guessing here, but I hope to have a useful point.

All the best,


Br. Alberto "El Caballero" Lacaye

 

In my opinion an Italian graduate (Laurea) is an educated person. But it's not the problem.
My intention has been to inform European students, who want to study at Excelsior for example, that recognition problems can arise in their country.
I talked to a very good friend about degrees earned by examination (standardized tests). He is a priest in Switzerland and a professor in a French Grande Ecole (not prestigious).
He is not very enthusiastic about degrees earned by examination, an euphemism. The problem; he is also a member of the academic commission of this school.

Best regards

Ulrich

PS There are centers of excellence in Italy.

 

Dear Ulrich,

Thank you for your response.

Ulrich, I think that you still haven't answered my question. Specifically, will a degree from Excelsior earned entirely by independent study classes (correspondence courses) be recognized in Europe or the countries you mentioned? What about the cases that Tom was talking about, that is, University of London External Programme and Heriot-Watt University, both of which offer external degrees by examination? Will they also be recognized? Your opinions in these regards are greatly appreciated.

Respectfully yours,


Alberto "El Caballero" Lacaye

 

I did not ask, Tom. I don't know.

The excellent Open University in Milton Keynes writes:
" Every year over 70,000 students from all round the world choose British degrees as the qualifications that will put them on the road to success. Many of those students often ask how Open University qualifications are recognized in other countries for professional or educational purposes."

Here are a few excerpts:

"It is important to present your studies in a way that emphasizes the quality of the University's qualifications."
"It may help to stress the following points:
A degree awarded by the Open University is equal in academic standard to a degree from any other British university."
"You may also stress the high ranking of the Open University in the league tables of UK universities, based on the inspections of their teaching quality (in 2000 the OU is in the top 15%)."
"Mention that many British universities have agreements with the OU for the reciprocal transfer of credit at undergraduate level and that professional bodies such as the British Psychological Society and the Engineering Council recognise OU degrees and courses.
Stress the support available to Open University students."
"Open University degrees are awarded not for correspondence courses, but for supported open distance learning."
"Since an Open University degree is part-time and taught at a distance, it is important to stress the amount of study it takes."
"If you have included Residential Schools in your degree profile, do not forget to mention the intensive laboratory or practical work undertaken there, and the opportunities for group work, presentations etc."
If you have included courses with home experimental kits in your degree, mention the importance of the experiments you have conducted at home."
"Stress the rigour of the University's assessment system, especially the fact that students must pass both the continuous assessment element and the written examination in order to pass the course." "It may also be useful to refer to the criteria used for the classification of the Honours degree."
"If you are presenting the University's MBA, mention that it has accreditation by the Association of MBEs (AMBA)."

Ulrich

 

Hello Alberto.

In my opinion, it is not easy but not impossible. But it doesn't mean that a degree earned entirely by independent study classes will get no recognition at all. The curriculum must be well structured. A commission will evaluate the curriculum and determine its level. In France each university has its own evaluation commission. Therefore the university deciides independently. It can be a little arbitrary.

The prejudice against distance education is vanishing, slowly, but it is vanishing.

Je ne sais pas, Alberto. I'm sorry.
These examinations are not standardized tests. But I don't know

Yours sincerely.

Ulrich Bozzo

 

Ulrich, do you have any information on *why* Italy does not accept at least some kinds of credit by examination?

If they are opposing credit by examination in principle, I would oppose their position. I think that a well designed and challenging set of examinations can work pretty well. I've seen some of the materials for the University of London's external bachelors in philosophy, and they are excellent. If the exams match the quality and rigor of the texts, I would have no qualms. Heriot Watt's exams are also pretty serious by all accounts.

But if Italy is addressing the problem of "easy degrees", I agree with them. There have been a number of participants at this group and at AED who have talked about how easy it was for them to rack up large amounts of credit with minimal study. Personally, I don't think that it is possible to adaquately learn most university subjects in a few hours of skimming a text. So any exams that one can pass that way probably aren't entirely credible.

It would be unfortunate if Italy was prohibiting credible examination credit just to be sure of keeping out the easy credit. But that might be more practical than examining every examination in detail.

But what does Italy do with the majority of students that combine their examination credit with other credit by coursework? There is an entire range possible from some person who takes all courses and one exam, to someone who takes all exams and one course. Where do they draw the line? Many conventional on-campus students challenge a course or take an independent study project.

 

[BillDayson wrote:
There have been a number of participants at this group and at AED who have talked about how easy it was for them to rack up large amounts of credit with minimal study. Personally, I don't think that it is possible to adaquately learn most university subjects in a few hours of skimming a text. So any exams that one can pass that way probably aren't entirely credible.


Saying this, is it your intention to cast a shadow over such examinations like ECE, CLEP, GRE and DANTES?

Dennis Siemens

 

Only if it is possible to come in off the street and pass them without serious study. I find it hard to believe that would be possible, but others seem to suggest that it is.

I can't imagine passing a GRE subject examination cold, unless you have significant work experience in that field or are a self-educated buff of some sort. I do have doubts about some of the CLEP's, based only on what I have read on AED and here, which may or may not be entirely true.

So, all I'm saying is that *if* it is true that one can pass some of these tests without prior knowledge of the field and with minimal study, then Italy is probably right to be suspicious of them.

 

Not really.

I fully agree with you provided that during the final two years studies represent greater specialization as well as an introduction to research and analysis of complex problems.

I don't know if they are opposing credit by examinations.
Despite the recent reform Italy has still a traditional university system. Credit by examination through standardized tests is not known. I suppose that the Italian legislation simply reflects the Italian university system.

I like University of London's external bachelors very much. But I keep convinced that this way of study, in mathematics for example, is extremely difficult and a little anachronistic. But if you are able to earn a UoL's bachelor without help I think you deserve to enter a good graduate school.

It is one of the reasons. Very probably.
What does the evaluation commission require, if you want the recognition of your degree ?
They want your curriculum to be equivalent to a traditional curriculum in Italy. They consider that you musst "attend" university courses. It doesn't mean that they dislike distance education. If you want to be an engineer, there is a wonderfull D-E programme offered by the consorzio Nettuno. It means that your courses have to be equivalent to traditional courses. Skimming a text, as you wrote, in order to pass a test is not adequate.
Professional experience, general knowledge, hobbies not either.

Pragmatism is also known in Italy.
I think you understand how it works. They will not reject a student with a good curriculum from a "traditional" university because he passed a few standardized tests.

Ulrich

 

Originally posted by Dennis:

Saying this, is it your intention to cast a shadow over such examinations like ECE, CLEP, GRE and DANTES?

Not only suggesting it is possible but *telling* you it *is* possible, Bill. This does not mean however, that the examinee does not know the subject. You cannot pass the exam at the required level, if you do not know the subject to the required level. If you do, you can pass the exams without serious study. I've done it. What is it about that that irks you, Bill? I and others didn't work hard enough for your liking?

Imagine it, Bill. Better still, go take a GRE exam and then pontificate. Then you wont have to "imagine" at all. And as for - "[M]ay or may not be entirely true." Since I'm the main one that's been promoting this view, I think you may have me in mind, sport. Why not say what you mean.

I'll present the data, and that way idle speculation will be unnecessary. Send me your phone number at [email protected] if you require further verification, Bill. We'll arrange something with document transfer, then you can be satisfied. When you are satisfied, you can kiss my er..., ring.


GRE:
I sat two GRE exams without a huge amount of study. I studied at all, only because I required a pass above the 80th percentile and wanted a score above the 90th percentile for personal "validation". Had I required a pass above the 40th percentile (as at COSC), I would have had no need of study at all. Had I required a score above the 65th percentile, I'd have required light revision. I sat Political Science and Psychology. I scored above the 96th percentile in the former and above the 92nd percentile in the latter. That is, of all who have taken those exams, past or present (exams scores are normalized to remove gross variation in scores diet to diet), my performance was in the top 4% and the top 8% respectively.

Remember here we are in competition with graduates in the subject or in a closely related field. The passing scores are standardized scores that translate in percentile rated performance. That is, your score is a rating comparing you to everyone else. It is, to labor the point, a competitive score or position on a bell curve. If it is the case, as Bill seems to be arguing, that the exams are pretty well worthless if someone (me, for instance) can walk in and pass them without monumental study, what does that say about the 96% of examinees who did not do as well as I did in the Political Science exam, or the 40% that failed to pass at all? Most were Politics and Government majors. Are we to say that if they scored, say, above the 95 percentile, that they are worthy? Or if they score above the 97th percentile, are they then worthy? And how *badly* would *I* have to do to validate the credibility of the exam? 35 percentile? 60th percentile. And how much study would be required of me before you decided the exam was meaningful and rigorous enough, and *my* score, mediocre enough?

These are competitive exams. I went in there and took on all other examinees, and did better than most (as have other Regents/COSC students. I'm using myself as an example, not blowing my horn. Others have performed better than I ever did, or could do.). In the case of the Psychology exam, at my diet, there were 55,000 candidates, and my percentile score was relative to the scores of more than 250,000 people (examinees) in all diets. I did better than most graduates in the subject, Bill, that is a fact. If the exam is too easy, not rigorous enough, how come I beat them? How come the raw scores follow a Normal frequency distribution pattern. That would not happen if the exam were simply "easy". Results would be skewed way to the right.

Note that I had no work experience and no formal academic training or experience in either Politics of Psychology. I had a long standing interest in British politics and in political philosophy, but had to brush up on the U.S. system. I knew what I knew going into the degree, and supplemented experience and existing knowledge where necessary with the requisite study. For the most part (a few exceptions), I hardly broke sweat in either degree. I don't like to say that because it can be disheartening to others who might be experiencing some difficulty. I do so only to make the point that it can be done. I am not alone in this.


*Are* some of these exams easy? Sure. And all exams are "easy" when you know enough to pass them, Bill. If you do not know enough, the exams will be harder. It is all to do with knowing enough about the subject at the required level and to the required depth. Obviously.

CLEP, RCE, DANTES:
38 exams sat. Most with little study. 11 with no study at all. One of the 38 exams was taken twice - I took ill during the first exam and could not continue to the end but did submit my paper anyway. Of the total of 38 exams, I passed 38.

Four exams were not letter graded:
For those not letter credited, the percentile scores were 99th percentile, 97th percentile, 96th percentile, and 89th percentile.

The rest (34) were letter graded. Results were:
34 A, 3 B, 1 C.

I graduated from USNY with a Liberal Arts degree, BS in Political Science (Concentration), overall GPA 3.40
I graduated from Regents College with a BS in General Business summa cum laude, overall GPA 3.92

It's all laid out here for you. You're free to tell me my degrees are not worth a shit. Who am I to argue? They are, however, regionally accredited shit, and in that respect, they are just like yours. Objectively then, how are we to judge competence? How are you going to assess my competence in these subjects, Bill? Are you fit to do that? I've passed the exams, you haven't. What is it that your unique perspective and experience brings to this debate that makes you think you are fit to judge the merits of competency examinations? Seriously, all we have had is supposition. What you *feel* should be the case. It does seem you think those of us who have gone this route are not worthy in some respect. What is it you know that we don't? If you can show where we fail in graduate school, that would certainly be cause for concern. Show us the deficit, Bill. Where are we lacking? What more must we prove and how might we prove it to your satisfaction. Do as you did? Is that it?

You're free to tell me the exams passes I made are not worth a damn, either. Question is though, what does that say about all those I (and again, other Regents/COSC students) bested in these exams, especially the GRE subject exams? If I can walk in and beat the average graduate in the subject by 46 percentile points - not percentage points, percentile points - what does that say about most graduates? Could it be possible that I knew the examined material better than they did? Isn't that what the exam (subject exam we're talking about) is supposed to assess?

Now, having said that, let me address the main point as I see it. These exams judge performance relative to other candidates. I believe the problem is not the exams, nor the use of exams for college credit, but the quality and standard of the average college education and the resulting quality of the average college candidate. That is, if standards are low, it is a general problem, and good or even excellent performance by motivated adult students, against mediocre opposition, should not then be a surprise.


Detailed exam performance breakdown:

CLEP

Social Science (6) 99%ile
English Composition with Essay (6) 97%ile
Natural Science (6) 96%ile
Humanities (6) 89%ile
Introductory Psychology (3) A
Introduction to Educational Psychology (3) A
Information Systems and Computer Applications (3) A
Macroeconomics (3) A
Principles of Management (3) A
Principles of Marketing (3) A
Microeconomics (3) A
Introductory Business Law (3) A
American Government (3) A
Principles of Accounting (6) (B), (A) (retaken due to illness during first sitting)

DANTES

Management Information Systems (3) A
Principles of Finance (3) A
Business Law II (3) A
Principles of Supervision (3) A
Contemporary Western Europe (3) A
Money and Banking (3) B
Criminal Justice (3) A
Fundamentals of Counseling (3) A
Principles of Financial Accounting (3) A
Drug and Alcohol Abuse (3) A

RCE

Abnormal Psychology (3) A
Ethics Theory and Practice (3) A
Fundamentals of Gerontology (3) A
Labor Relations (3) A
Lifespan Developmental Psychology (3) A
Organizational Behavior (3) A
Psychology of Adulthood and Aging (3) A
English Composition (6) C
Business Policy and Strategy (3) B
Human Resource Management (3) A
Production/Operations Management (3) A
Research Methods in Psychology (3) A
World Population (3) A

GRE Subject

Psychology (30) 690 >92%ile
Revised Political Science (30) 680 >96%ile

CLEP

Social Science (6) 99%ile
English Composition with Essay (6) 97%ile
Natural Science (6) 96%ile
Humanities (6) 89%ile
Introductory Psychology (3) A
Introduction to Educational Psychology (3) A
Information Systems and Computer Applications (3) A
Macroeconomics (3) A
Principles of Management (3) A
Principles of Marketing (3) A
Microeconomics (3) A
Introductory Business Law (3) A
American Government (3) A
Principles of Accounting (6) (B), (A) (retaken due to illness during first sitting)

DANTES

Management Information Systems (3) A
Principles of Finance (3) A
Business Law II (3) A
Principles of Supervision (3) A
Contemporary Western Europe (3) A
Money and Banking (3) B
Criminal Justice (3) A
Fundamentals of Counseling (3) A
Principles of Financial Accounting (3) A
Drug and Alcohol Abuse (3) A

RCE

Abnormal Psychology (3) A
Ethics Theory and Practice (3) A
Fundamentals of Gerontology (3) A
Labor Relations (3) A
Lifespan Developmental Psychology (3) A
Organizational Behavior (3) A
Psychology of Adulthood and Aging (3) A
English Composition (6) C
Business Policy and Strategy (3) B
Human Resource Management (3) A
Production/Operations Management (3) A
Research Methods in Psychology (3) A
World Population (3) A

GRE Subject

Psychology (30) 690 >92%ile
Revised Political Science (30) 680 >96%ile

 

I did 30+ credits via CLEP and DANTES, and didn't study a single second for any of the exams. Why do you think I should be penalized because I already had the knowledge necessary to pass those exams??

Bruce

 

In my opinion, it is possible to pass a test without extensive preparation, as long as you are a well-read and versatile person. And I guess, that is what Lawrie has in mind, he doesn't talk about some illiterate just walking in and easily passing all the tests. Though, I must admit that when I first saw his "BA in 4 weeks" at the AED, I thought it was some sort of diploma mill. However, after a closer look it turned out to contain many valuable information. Though, I don't think I could manage it in just four weeks. Moreover, the mock tests are not to be sneezed at. They offer a good opportunity to narrow down on a topic, thus actually making possible to study the stuff that is relevant for the examination. Another important thing to keep in mind, is that at European high schools they often already cover undergraduate level work to some extent. Didn't someone recently mention here that British students are often given advanced placement at American universities? (by the way there is a good article at: http://www.cepes.ro/hed/recogn/groups/guideusa.htm
that discusses the mutual recognition of European and US high school diplomas and degrees, though it seems to be slightly dated)
By the way, I'd even go so far as to say that it is more difficult to take an examination the way most of the non-traditional tests are administered(e.g. at Prometric centers) than study and take an examination the traditional, on campus way. Taking an examination at college, the traditional way, it is often(not always) possible to cheat. And we know, students often do cheat and it seems that nobody is taking great offence at this fact. But if you take an examination at e.g. Prometric(Sylvan) center, its stricter, to my knowledge and keep in mind, you don't have your cronies around to crib off as in high school or college often the case is. For example, to acquire a high school diploma in the US you are supposed to attend school for twelve years but to earn a GED diploma(the equivalent of the high school diploma) by testing out, it takes only 7h 35min. And guess what, one third of those who just earned a high school diploma fail to pass the GED test. Now, I don't necessarily say all those who failed were cheating at high school but it seems to substantiate my point that earning a credit through examination is often harder than doing it the conventional way.

Btw, Lawrie, when will you post the "BA in 4 weeks" series on business? I'm impatiently awaiting it.

Dennis Siemens

 

Well Bill, it is possible. I've done it, and I was only 20 years old at that time. I took the GRE Political Science exam with no studying at all. I was not as successful as Lawrie Miller (who scored 90+ percentiles and got 30 semester hours for each exam). But hey, 24 credits ain't bad at all.

 

ARE U.S. DEGREES BY EXAM REALLY NOT ACCEPTED?


I'd like to step beck a moment if I may, and challenge the interpretation of the guidance offered by the Italian CIMEA-FONDAZIONE RUI

It has been stated that this reply, detailed below, demonstrates that the degrees in question are not acceptable in Italy. My years at the renowned Bablefish School of Languages lead me to believe otherwise.

I think the reply from our Italian friends is at best ambiguous, perhaps because the question was poorly worded. Anyway here's my "translation".


ORIGINAL
La legislazione italiana vigente in materia di riconoscimento-studi non prevede il riconoscimento di tests, nè quelli da Lei indicati, nè di altro tipo. Se decide di trasferirsi in Italia, dovrà ricominciare
gli studi universitari ex novo. Con i migliori saluti.

BABLEFISH TRANSLATION
The enforced Italian legislation in matter of acknowledgment-studies does not preview the acknowledgment of tests, neither those from She indicated, neither of other type. If it decides of trasferirsi in Italy, will have to recommence the former university studies novo. With the best salutes.

LAWRIE'S TRANSLATION (of the bablefish translation)
Italian legislation in matters of recognition does not address tests, neither those detailed, nor any other type. Should you decide to transfer to an Italian institution, you would have to redo those courses (studies). With the best wishes.


That is my interpretation. It's rather ambiguous. I hold it addresses the issue of transferring courses and not of degree recognition. Clarification is required. Si?

 

Attn: Lawrie Miller

Why did you take the CLEP English Composition with Essay and the RCE English Composition?