Countin' churches...

Discussion in 'Off-Topic Discussions' started by Carl_Reginstein, Jan 5, 2006.

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  1. Ted Heiks

    Ted Heiks Moderator and Distinguished Senior Member

    Re: I have no problem

    Actually, I don't think the amount of money a church makes should have anything whatsoever to do with its tax-exempt status. Either churches should, or should not, have the right to a tax-exempt status and presumably if one wishes to offer an opinion on same, hopefully said individual will be able to offer a reason why churches should/should not be tax-exempt.
     
  2. DTechBA

    DTechBA New Member

    Re: Re: I have no problem

    This is an easy one. Governing bodies require taxes to operate. If churches participate in economic activity and compete against private entities their tax-exempt status gives them a vast competitive advantage. So much so that they could drive private businesses out of business. This deprives the local government of the tax revenue the private enterprises would have provided. This damages the local governments ability to provide the infrastructure and services necessary for the community. Since churches benefit from the infrastructure provided by the local government entities, they should not be exempt from supporting it if their activities are harmful to the tax base of the community.

    Generally, churches do not operate in a manner that is harmful to the community. The churches are generally only a minor part of the property tax base and the donations people make to the churches are generally not taxed by localities anyway. However, operating businesses is a whole other ballgame.

    Tax exemption is not a zero sum issue. The decisions centuries ago which provided for tax benefits for churches did not envison a church that operates health clubs, restaurants etc on their premises.

    Again, I do not have a problem with churches having tax exemptions for property directly related to worship. However, when they cross over to commercial activity that is a whole other ballgame....
     
  3. DTechBA

    DTechBA New Member

    Re: Re: I have no problem

    This is an easy one. Governing bodies require taxes to operate. If churches participate in economic activity and compete against private entities their tax-exempt status gives them a vast competitive advantage. So much so that they could drive private businesses out of business. This deprives the local government of the tax revenue the private enterprises would have provided. This damages the local governments ability to provide the infrastructure and services necessary for the community. Since churches benefit from the infrastructure provided by the local government entities, they should not be exempt from supporting it if their activities are harmful to the tax base of the community.

    Generally, churches do not operate in a manner that is harmful to the community since they do not generally MAKE money. The churches are generally only a minor part of the property tax base and the donations people make to the churches are generally not taxed by localities anyway. However, operating businesses is different thing entirely.

    Tax exemption is not a zero sum issue. The decisions centuries ago which provided for tax benefits for churches did not envison a church that operate health clubs, restaurants etc on their premises.

    Again, I do not have a problem with churches having tax exemptions for property directly related to worship. However, when they cross over to commercial activity that is a whole other ballgame....
     
  4. Ted Heiks

    Ted Heiks Moderator and Distinguished Senior Member

    Re: Re: Re: I have no problem

    A couple questions first:

    1) Where are you getting your info that says that churches do not generally make money?
    2) You really mean that there are churches that operate health clubs and restaurants?

    General Observations:

    Personally, I think we ought to revoke the default assumption that churches ought to be tax-exempt. If any individual churches wish to, they may figure out how to file as a non-profit, if they fit the definition. That would level the playing field.
     
  5. SteveFoerster

    SteveFoerster Resident Gadfly Staff Member

    How obnoxious. My sister's a minister, and senior pastor at her church. I am a skeptical agnostic, but while I think she's mistaken, I don't think that she's intentionally misleading anyone.

    At the same time, she does do pretty well financially, especially with the Social Security exemption and the free house and all. ;)

    -=Steve=-
     
  6. SteveFoerster

    SteveFoerster Resident Gadfly Staff Member

    Re: Re: Re: I have no problem

    I find this is more of an argument for funding government provided services through user fees rather than broad based taxation than it is one for ending tax exemption for religious organizations.

    -=Steve=-
     
  7. DTechBA

    DTechBA New Member

    Re: Re: Re: Re: I have no problem

    Yes, there are churches that operate health clubs, several restaurants not just one and have such things as bowling alleys. There are churches that have several hundred employees they operate so many businesses. If you have access to The Economist look at their recent article on the matter. If not, do a google and I am sure you will be amazed at how some churches have grown. A pointed mention made by The Economist was how the churches intentionally operated without overt religiosity. They have even taken a large part of religion out of their sermons. One church did not even have a cross or stained windows in the knave area itself. Not even a bare cross much less a crucifiction cross.

    I am sorry but these churches are crossing the line from a justifiably tax-exempt religious body into consumer driven service and business providers and at a minimum put a strain on the justification for the tax-exempt status.

    It is a tax exempt issue as service fees generally relate to direct support like licensing and services instead of general street mainteneance and repair which also benefit the church. Should the city refuse to clean the snow off the street in front of the church if they do not pay taxes to support city services?
     
  8. DTechBA

    DTechBA New Member

    Another example...

    This is not really an example of the issues of tax exemption but is one of how religious activities can cause problems with local governments.

    A small community in my area (and a very religious one with a high concentration of churches for its population) lost its local elemenatry school several years ago due to declining enrollment. It was a controversial issue as people become very upset when local schools close. Some were upset because the local Catholic Church operates an elementary and middle school and they believed (rightly or wrongly) that if it had been operating their public school would have had enough students to continue operating.

    Now, since the community's population has continued to age and even fewer school age students are available, the Catholic school is in danger of being closed by the local diocese. Of course, that will not bring back the public school so the community will just be out a school of any kind.

    Again, it is not a simple religious freedom issue......
     
  9. Ted Heiks

    Ted Heiks Moderator and Distinguished Senior Member

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: I have no problem

    Interesting. I didn't know all that. The biggest mega-church I was ever personally familiar with had a Christian bookstore, but not health clubs, restaurants, bowling alleys, etc. And, of course, there are some churches that own their own seminaries, universities, etc. But these (as opposed to health clubs, restaurants, etc.) are clearly within the mission of a church. Of course, I think that churches ought to be allowed to invest their money in anything that will generate money to help them continue operating. But, like I say, churches should not have tax-exempt status by default but could, like other organizations, apply for non-profit status, if they qualify. I don't think that having/not having crosses, religiously-themed stained glass windows, etc. should necessarily be deemed a standard for whether a church is really a church, as there are some denominations which would interpret the part about having no graven images so strictly as to preclude these.
     
  10. DTechBA

    DTechBA New Member

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: I have no problem

    I do not either. However, when a church works to move overt religion out of its operations in an attempt to increase their number of parishioners and at the same time offers them profit producing services not related to worship you are straining the justification for their tax-exempt status based on their being a religious organization.
     
  11. uncle janko

    uncle janko member

    "Christian" hucksterism

    That sort of crapola will get you thrown out of my denomination.
     
  12. Guest

    Guest Guest

    The Social Security exemption is nice but it may come back to haunt all of us after we retire. Also, a number of churches are no longer offering parsonages (manses, vicarages, rectories) any longer but simply a housing allowance.
     
  13. BLD

    BLD New Member

    They already have to do that. It isn't like you can put a sign that says "church" out front and you're automatically granted tax-exempt status.

    BLD
     
  14. 3$bill

    3$bill New Member

    What ever happened with the Texas Comptroller's decisions that Unitarianism and Buddhism did not qualify as religions under Texas tax laws?
     
  15. SteveFoerster

    SteveFoerster Resident Gadfly Staff Member

    Well shoot, I guess I'll take the sign down, then. ;)

    -=Steve=-
     
  16. Lerner

    Lerner Well-Known Member

    Well, some things come with the territiry the rest is human nature.

    All one need is read the letters to the churches in the revelation of John. Even then at the beginning there was activities in the churches that didn't belong there.

    I'm sure the same goes for musks and synagogues.

    And religion was a political tool from the beginning.
    What it really coms to is individual.

    In the "hall of fame" of the bible we have individuals not institutions.

    Some good individuals who do and seak good, they feed the hungry, provide shelter to homeless etc.
    These are real servants, no they don't fly in their owned planes, no they don't have millions on their accounts, instead they have shelter, food and kindness, these are the servants of whom was said when I was hungry you fed me etc.

    Its not how many churches but how many churches of good godly people that not only learn and spread the richeous teachings and laws of God but also help the needy, poor, people that are afflicted with diseases, or refuges from nature disasters such as Katrina etc.

    So churches today are blessing to the many, especially when there is a movement to remove religion from our schools etc.

    There is much more to say, not all is good yes we know about cases of child abuse by priests etc, we know about some churches that they are after money as some suggested, but I believe that the good the churches do outweigh the bad significantly.

    Just remember that these places run by people.

    learner
     
  17. Well, I'm staking out my territiry on this subject! I like it that there "was" activities in this thread that I don't approve of....

    And at some point, I'll try out that new "musk" my wife gave me, and possibly com around to her way of thinking too.... Perhaps I'll even seak some good!

    I definitely need some richeous teaching, maybe it will help my bank account this year?

    And, it has been my experience as well that churches do run by people..... especially the churches wearing those new Nike sneakers designed for speed.

    Lerner, you are so right on the muney here!
     
  18. Dave C.

    Dave C. New Member

    Re: Re: Countin' churches...

    Bill,

    I know you have posted since on this thread, but this one really caught my eye...you a indeed a man of consumate wisdom and I am beginning to look out for your posts in any thread.

    As a believer in God I hope one day you will join me, even if you don't expect to learn in this lifetime whether or not there is a God. I sincerely hope you do, because this is the only chance any of us have...

    Peace,

    Dave C.
     

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